PHC1
Addicted Member
Seems to me you can buy many more than just 2 of the $599 MFW-15 vs the $12k JL Gotham.
Subs, Subs & more Subs
- Thread starter masterlu
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Yes, I plan on having that versatility.
ginovino
Active Member
Seems to me you can buy many more than just 2 of the $599 MFW-15 vs the $12k JL Gotham.
Touche' young man... I misspoke... thinking of the JL113 per favor'...
Now that you made your point... what is your point? certainly not Humor, considering the weight of it's sledge hammer...
The Jl's which I was referring to... are indeed 6 times as costly as 1 MFW-15's ! One MFW-15 outperforms the $3500 JL period..... Money is not the issue, its is prudence. I own a VPI TNT table, but I only use a Grado Statement, not a Myobi Cart of the moment for $5k..... I hope you understand the subtilty.
PHC1
Addicted Member
Touche' young man... I misspoke... thinking of the JL113 per favor'...
Now that you made your point... what is your point? certainly not Humor, considering the weight of it's sledge hammer...
The Jl's which I was referring to... are indeed 6 times as costly as 1 MFW-15's ! One MFW-15 outperforms the $3500 JL period..... Money is not the issue, its is prudence. I own a VPI TNT table, but I only use a Grado Statement, not a Myobi Cart of the moment for $5k..... I hope you understand the subtilty.
Everyone's entitled to their opinion. I've made my choice based on aesthetics, build quality and features and just ordered 2xF112's for my listening room.
Let me know how that works out. I've considered the same thing.
PHC1
Addicted Member
You bet. :yes:
I decided to go with a stereo pair of subs.
I strongly prefer the ST series of the REL subs but 2 of those beasts (Stentor IIIs), would be too space consuming, not very cost efficient and an overkill for my 14x17 listening room.
First step will be the integration of the F112 subs into my 2 channel rig, the automatic room optimization should make this process easier. Depending on the results, I may experiment with the Bryston 10B-subwoofer active X/O and unload some of the bass off my Guarneri.
Touche' young man... I misspoke... thinking of the JL113 per favor'...
Now that you made your point... what is your point? certainly not Humor, considering the weight of it's sledge hammer...
The Jl's which I was referring to... are indeed 6 times as costly as 1 MFW-15's ! One MFW-15 outperforms the $3500 JL period..... Money is not the issue, its is prudence. I own a VPI TNT table, but I only use a Grado Statement, not a Myobi Cart of the moment for $5k..... I hope you understand the subtilty.
I find it humourous how that list gets quoted by folks who have never heard the subs in question or make a performance comparison based on price. It seems to me if price is a big issue you would not buy McIntosh either. Personally I place very little weight on that comparative ranking given the criteria used, the inherent flaws in its music scores and the fact that few of those subs in question were auditioned at the same time.
If you hear the Fathoms you would understand why they are one of only three subs given Stereophile Class A rating. The Gothams are a cut above the FL113s.
Alright, sub is done, here are a couple pics. Project ended up costing around $1300 (if I would have paid retail for the amp and drivers it would have been closer to $2200), which is a bit much for DIY, BUT a heck of a lot cheaper than a JL F113, Revel, Velodyne DD18, etc....PLUS I think the finish is better and more custom to my liking. The thing sounds great so far. Drivers are (2) TC sounds TC1000 12".
here is a link for more info if you want it:
http://www.hometheatershack.com/for...-tc-sounds-tc1000-sealed-pics.html#post103108
here is a link for more info if you want it:
http://www.hometheatershack.com/for...-tc-sounds-tc1000-sealed-pics.html#post103108
Having sold REL for years, it would fall lower to about 3 or 4th. The JL Gotham leads the pack by about 10-15 % on a pure performance basis. This would be followed by a toss-up between the Newest AV123.com MFW-15 and the SVS PB-13. Of course the AV123 is half the cost!!!!!
read for yourself:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9164136#post9164136
Even the great HSU line is demoted to about top third in the rankings.
You can buy 2 MFW-15 for the price of one JL sub!!!!
I also suggest with any sub to use the AQ Sub3 Sub woofer cable...simple the best IMHO!
I was going to post that link we well, there are a couple others to look at. The av123 and SVS are amazing subs are amazing prices. People think the JLs are the pinnicle, while they are some incredible subs, I think their marketing department has done a fabulous job as well. Building a sub is NOT magic, it is one of the easiest things to build in a home audio system, just interesting that JL got it right the 1st time (coming from car audio) and so many home audio sub manuf cant get it right after how many years?
Here are some more good links
Another List (in order) of sub reviews:
http://www.tweakcityaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11
OTHER MASTER LISTS:
http://www.hometheatershack.com/for...index-subwoofer-tests-manufacturer-model.html
http://www.avtalk.co.uk/forum/index.php?t=thread&frm_id=50&rid=0&SQ=0&start=0
Just reread all the replies, it is interesting that someone mentions that you can get better performance out of a cheaper sub, and someone else comes on and refutes that by saying that is price were everything, we wouldn't own McIntosh.
I think the point was that the AV123 got better rankings AND it is even less money (with emphasis on "better rankings"). Seems like the original poster is someone who has experience with subs and was trying to be helpful to others letting them know that there are actual other options out there that happen to be well priced.
I was actually 100% sold on the JL Audio F113, they can be had all over the place (audiogon, et al) for just over $2000, which isn't too bad, then I started doing a TON of research and realized that the JL isn't the "untouchable" sub that some tend to think it is. Like I mentioned earlier, it is a great sub and as good or better than 99.9% of them out there, but there are better, you just have to do the research.
I think the point was that the AV123 got better rankings AND it is even less money (with emphasis on "better rankings"). Seems like the original poster is someone who has experience with subs and was trying to be helpful to others letting them know that there are actual other options out there that happen to be well priced.
I was actually 100% sold on the JL Audio F113, they can be had all over the place (audiogon, et al) for just over $2000, which isn't too bad, then I started doing a TON of research and realized that the JL isn't the "untouchable" sub that some tend to think it is. Like I mentioned earlier, it is a great sub and as good or better than 99.9% of them out there, but there are better, you just have to do the research.
william.keith
Super Member
Some of the things I appreciate about my PS112 subs are the facts that the 400 watt amps and hi-pass electronics reflect same quality as separates with no integration issues.
PHC1
Addicted Member
Better rankings (whose rankings are they anyway???) don't mean much in my book. The $599 may be a bargain but the ported, 15" driver design with 300w is not something I am interested in. I prefer the sealed design with long excursion, smaller drivers. They are typically "faster", have less bloat and are more "musical". I have a 2 channel dedicated music system, not a HT and I am not trying to bring down the house.
The REL subs, although also ported, are not really designed to replace the bass missing from the main speakers but "augment" the main speakers and as such are rarely used above 25Hz. The JL will allow me to go up a bit and experiment to see how much bass I can take off the monitors, the faster, smaller drivers will be crucial in this case.
cougit25
Active Member
Alright, sub is done, here are a couple pics. Project ended up costing around $1300 (if I would have paid retail for the amp and drivers it would have been closer to $2200), which is a bit much for DIY, BUT a heck of a lot cheaper than a JL F113, Revel, Velodyne DD18, etc....PLUS I think the finish is better and more custom to my liking. The thing sounds great so far. Drivers are (2) TC sounds TC1000 12".
here is a link for more info if you want it:
http://www.hometheatershack.com/for...-tc-sounds-tc1000-sealed-pics.html#post103108
Rod, I don't see any pictures???? :worthless
dang, you don't see them? I guess you might have to register, let me link them from my computer (click on picture to enlarge).
Attachments
there have been a few independent sub reviews that rank them higher than the JL Audio sub, thats why I sent over a few more links. I prefer sealed as well (look at my design) but that doesn't necessarily mean that ported=bad.
The "smaller means faster" is something that is an old school way of thinking. Does this mean that a 12" or 10" JL is better than a 13". I was told by a sub designer recently that you have to think of it this way, lets look at an 18" driver compared to a 10" driver, an 18" driver only has to travel a fraction of the distance that the 10" has to travel to move the same amount of air, so does "speed" really matter, now who has the most distortion, etc.....It is also debatable that a smaller driver is actually "faster", it isn't all dependent on size, but mass, motor size, design (sealed vs ported vs LT, etc....) and power. I use to think the same way and it was always why I had (and still have) only 10" drivers in my car and I still believed it when building the sub I just finished with (2) 12" VS a single 18".
I am hardly a bass head, but it better go below 20 Hz and it better be flat and accurate, otherwise it isn't a "subwoofer". I don't want something that is only flat to 30 or 25 Hz, it isn't a matter of bringing down the house (I HATE when people have the bass turned waaaaaay up and out of purportion just to show off that they have bass) but providing ALL of the information from under 20 Hz up to 80 Hz.
Different strokes for different folks. While I agree that extension is desirable, especially for HT applications, too many people use that or output as a main proxy when making a decision... or a ranking for that matter. Most modern subs have linear response so that is a given these days.
For music reproduction ,except for organ, you don't need much extension below 27hz the lowest note found on a piano. In particular there are more important factors: such as a sub's ability to attack and decay ( or speed if people want to describe it that way), a great amp with high power and good damping factor and slew rate, absence of odd order harmonic distortion, low group delay, inaudible port and other noise etc.
I've been lucky to have been involved in many listening sessions with different sealed and vented subs over the years. Vented sub design has made great strides in improved sound quality but for the best performance ie. sound quality... its sealed subs. That's why I currently own a pair of JL113s and a pair of Velo DD-18s.
Outstanding looking subs you built with terrific drivers. Congrats.
