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subwoofer- silk sows ear purse? KEF 105.4 small mouth bass?

Discussion in 'Speakers' started by Monad, Oct 13, 2018.

  1. Monad

    Monad AK Subscriber Subscriber

    Messages:
    103
    Location:
    Iowa
    So after a struggle, several months of complaining to friends here and online, I think I've sorted out my KEF 105.4 speaker issues.

    All it took was new Falcon caps and 2 NOS tweeters and I finally understand what I was missing..they sound good now but not awesome because,

    imo--> the bass is lacking to nonexistent.

    I get it, the .4 model has two smaller speakers, where the 105.2 only had one larger one and the 107s are more bassful from the git but now that I'm here, with approx $900 into the 105.4s and stubborn..WTD?

    I'm looking at subwoofers to fill the hole.. have thought about adding other speakers. I saw a guy on the webs, if you can believe it, with a picture too, where he was running 105.4 up front with the 104.2 in back.. probably a sub in there somewhere but..I don't recall.

    I'm about to say eff it, use the KEFs for jazz.. easy play stuff and get some 70-80s kick out the jams speakers (JBL L, Klipsch Cornwallish, Kappa 8..) for everything else.

    other-Question- could it be my amp that just doesn't do it for the KEFs?

    System- PC/ turntable, ModiM, Freya pre, Bose 1800 Series VI (a white labeled carver PM1400- 350wpc into 8ohms).
     

     

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  2. willyrover

    willyrover Super Member

    Messages:
    3,124
    Location:
    Hamilton
    I use two subwoofers with my KEF 105.2s and the amplifier is definitely not lacking. (WOPL 700B)

    Consider using subwoofers not to increase bass, but to extend the bass. The trick is setting them up so that you don't know they are there...until you turn them off.
     
  3. ultumax

    ultumax Super Member

    Messages:
    1,116
    Location:
    Canton, OH
    These speakers look high end but maybe lack the size to produce lots of bass. What’s the frequency response? Ratings.
    BBetter receivers blend the bass seamlessly, what subwoofer are you getting?
    My cheap klipsch floor standing do plenty of bass the sub I need for movie effect tho.
    Different sub brand klipsch are too boomy for my tastes.
     
  4. Monad

    Monad AK Subscriber Subscriber

    Messages:
    103
    Location:
    Iowa
    I haven't figured out which sub(s) to get. I only want the sub for music. I don't play movies on this system.

    I was hoping to get some suggestions, bang v buck, based on current set up and as willyrover accurately restated, to 'extend the bass' of the KEFs

    Right now, I'd like to go as bang v buck, as possible for one or two subs. ;D

    Current CLIST options under consideration:

    Definitive Technology- 2 models
    DT003 250W- $160,
    Supercube SC2000- $210

    Energy EPS-100 $70

    Dayton Sub-1200 (2 of them, $110 each)

    SVS 23-90 cylinder, with Dayton HSPA1000 amp- $300

    Picowrecker DIY Home Theater Tapped Horn Subwoofers (2)- $300-- would I still need separate sub amp (?).

    The difference between $220 and $300 isn't as much of an issue, but if spending $70 gets me 70% percent to the SVS or Dayton level, then it may be better for now.

    :D
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2018
  5. Grenadeslio

    Grenadeslio Super Member

    Messages:
    2,805
    Get two of the Dayton Sub 1200's, great bang for the buck, and they make great speaker stands too lol. These are the older model I purchased about 5yrs ago, still rocking as new.

    Screenshot_20180801-185827.png

    I've used them with a pair of Klipsch Heresys also as speaker stands to great effect.
     
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  6. slimecity

    slimecity Super Member

    Messages:
    3,081
    Location:
    New Zealand
    Would be interesting to know how the bass drivers are loaded in that speaker. My 104.2's have 2 x 8" drivers - you wouldnt think you'd get much bass but the 4th order bandpass ensures that they kick sheer arse, even when the speakers are just idling.
     

     

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  7. Grenadeslio

    Grenadeslio Super Member

    Messages:
    2,805
    If those Daytons you mentioned are on Craigslist for $110 each, keep in mind new from Parts Express they can be had for $148 with a full warranty.

    Screenshot_20181013-003927.png
     
  8. Audiofreak71

    Audiofreak71 Boerboelicious Subscriber

    Messages:
    2,277
    Location:
    PNW
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2018
  9. Monad

    Monad AK Subscriber Subscriber

    Messages:
    103
    Location:
    Iowa
    thank you AF, read some good reviews on velodyne models, now its just justifying the added cost, without hearing both.

    good point on the Dayton new price as well..even though shipping is just $7.00, the 'lifetime' tech support and 5 year warranty is hard to beat.. it doesn't seem like they are many issues reported in the reviews section.
     
  10. Grenadeslio

    Grenadeslio Super Member

    Messages:
    2,805
    As I said, five yrs and still rocking the casbah.
     
  11. Monad

    Monad AK Subscriber Subscriber

    Messages:
    103
    Location:
    Iowa

     

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  12. ultumax

    ultumax Super Member

    Messages:
    1,116
    Location:
    Canton, OH
  13. JoeESP9

    JoeESP9 ESL's & tubes since 83

    Messages:
    16,628
    Location:
    Philadelphia PA
    That looks like transmission line construction. Transmission lines usually are 1/4 as long as the wavelength of the resonant frequency of the speaker.
    Nothing amplifies bass wave size except an amplifier.
    Here is a link to the explanation on Wikipedia.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transmission_line_loudspeaker

    FWIW: I have two DIY 12" TL subs.
     
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  14. ultumax

    ultumax Super Member

    Messages:
    1,116
    Location:
    Canton, OH
    Looks epic and hard to build , too bad no brands make them at an affordable rate .
    do movie theaters use something like this ?
    Max spl I bet !!! Nice how lots it take to build them yourself?
     
  15. baco99

    baco99 AK Subscriber Subscriber

    Messages:
    8,858
    Location:
    Lawrence, MA
    105.4 should produce plenty of bass. check the polarity of your woofers.
     
  16. Hawkeye83

    Hawkeye83 Super Member

    Messages:
    1,851
    Location:
    East-Central Iowa
    Yep, and for gosh sakes playing something that's got TONS of bass, just to be sure...rap, hip-hop, electronica, whatever. Make sure it has gobs of bass and see if the bass comes through then. For example, my KEF 107's are capable of producing tons of bass, but they absolutely will not "exaggerate" any bass that's not there. Some recordings can sound light on bass, but it's because that's how they were recorded/produced. Sometimes it can be frustrating, but I think it's just what an accurate speaker "does." I quickly remind myself that the bass is "okay" (more than okay) by playing some bass-heavy tracks.
     

     

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  17. ultumax

    ultumax Super Member

    Messages:
    1,116
    Location:
    Canton, OH
    Is it a music or theater sub? If music you want something that can be fast and accurate!
    My theater sub is overpowering for music , talk super bass . I like it but it’s a little overkill!!
    Floor standers should produce good bass . Also
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2018
  18. Monad

    Monad AK Subscriber Subscriber

    Messages:
    103
    Location:
    Iowa
    I don't use this system for HT, so ideally looking for a 'musical' sub.

    I put on the Cars, 'Moving in Stereo', earlier tonight. It was was loud and clean 24-192. I was surprised by the bass when the song started but at lower volumes, that sound disappeared into the mids again.

    Next was some Groove Armada and Thievery Corporation but i had to turn it up and sit farther back to get any punch. I booted some Gangstarr thereafter, a lower quality recording and it was similarly just ok, at higher volumes and less bouncy at lower volumes.

    The 'sound' output is good, clean, clear and enjoyable but still feels like I'm missing the bottom end of the music. Right now, Jazz, less busy Classical and Kraftwerk-type minimalist stuff sounds best.

    Rock, Metal is just frustrating for critical listening but not as bad when I'm up and running around the house. I put on Iron Maiden, 'Run to the Hills..' and it's just ok. That double bass drum charge, seems less engaging than it should be- - - or maybe I'm not high on the weeds, at 16, in my friend's parents basement- anymore. Maybe it's me that's changed.

    I don't need explosions to sound real, nor do I want to add bass and shake my windows but again, the output just seems unbalanced and top heavy.

    Do I have to pull the speakers out to check polarity? I watched some youtube vids with the 'how to' but I'm hesitant to pull the lower speakers because, I'm concerned about damaging them.. I really don't know what I'm doing, which is probably obvious to many/ most/ all, at this point..
     
  19. baco99

    baco99 AK Subscriber Subscriber

    Messages:
    8,858
    Location:
    Lawrence, MA
    You should be able to access the woofer connections via the crossover, by reaching into the port. You can disconnect the woofers here, and check with a 1.5v battery (AAA/AA). That way you don't have to take the trap door off the bottom. The top woofer is very easy to get to. Same process. Watch for cone movement when you attach the battery. Do it momentarily and then released. Don't use a 9v battery.

    Do you have the KUBE? I can't remember.

    In terms of a "musical" sub. I can't stand this terminology. A sub is a sub is a sub. HOW it's used is much more critical to whether or not it integrates with your system. Are some subs better than others, of course. If a sub can keep its composure at multiple volume levels and still remain integrated with the system (ie - you can't locate it with your eyes closed), then it's a good sub.

    Most people make the mistake of turning a sub up so high so they can "feel" the bass, but they complain that it's not musical enough. This is based on my experience setting up home theater and car setups for people. Start the bass out low and gradually bring it up to a point where it fills in those voids left behind by the main speakers, then leave it there. And I usually try to avoid letting a sub crossover anywhere north of 80Hz. 50 or 60 Hz is even better.
     
  20. JoeESP9

    JoeESP9 ESL's & tubes since 83

    Messages:
    16,628
    Location:
    Philadelphia PA
    A good sub is exactly that, "A good sub". With good subs there is no HT or music sub. They are simply subs.

    Subs are not fast or slow. Bass frequencies do not require speed.

    A properly adjusted sub should need no adjusting when going from music to HT or vice versa. Flat is flat.

    How do I know this? The settings I use on my DSP using room measurements are almost exactly what the auto eq on my HT pre/pro sets for itself.

    At one time I turned off my DSP when it was movie time. After comparing the DSP and pre/pro settings. I turned off the auto eq and use the DSP for music and movies. My pre/pro and two channel preamp drive exactly the same front channel electronic crossover, DSP, amplifiers and speakers.
     

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