Switching speaker cables from silver to copper; first impressions.

Brett a

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Subscriber
Hi there.

Just yesterday, I sold my DH Labs Silver Sonic Q-10 speaker cables to a fellow member and used the proceeds to fund the purchase of a pair of unterminated (from bulk) Kimber 8vs. ($100 give or take)

I'm surprised by the difference they make.

I don't have enough experience with different speaker cables to have a general opinion about their place in the tuning of a system; I bought the Silver Sonics a few years back and called it good. They were the first professionally finished set of speaker cables I had owned.

But with the recent switch from bi-wire-able B&W 683s to the new-to-me single-pair-O-posts Vienna Acoustics Mozart Grands, I was ripe for a change. Also with that change in speaker came a switch from aluminum tweeters to cloth.

Anyway, it's day 1 with the new Kimbers and I wonder if I've lost something valuable; high frequency extension. The Kimbers are very smooth and warm, but I've lost just a smidge of fine detail. I want it back (I think).

It's not just about the tweeters either. I was running the Viennas with the Silver Sonics for nearly a month, so I was pretty used to their sound.

These are just my initial; impressions. I'll report back after a little more settling in.
 
Anyway, it's day 1 with the new Kimbers and I wonder if I've lost something valuable; high frequency extension. The Kimbers are very smooth and warm, but I've lost just a smidge of fine detail. I want it back (I think).

To my ears, the addition of silver tips up the high frequencies. I've used both T-14 and Q-10 an enjoyed both. If I was using a speaker that was sounding too bright with the silver, a switch back to 100% copper helped.
 
To be honest the 8VS is not Kimber's best effort. It isn't the copper that's the problem IMO it's that they are a low end Kimber speaker cable.

There are quite a few good quality options with a variety of materials that I would choose over the 8VS. One of my favorite under $300 is the Analysis Plus (Black) Oval 12.
 
To my ears, the addition of silver tips up the high frequencies. I've used both T-14 and Q-10 an enjoyed both. If I was using a speaker that was sounding too bright with the silver, a switch back to 100% copper helped.
I think I've gone from one relative extreme to the other. Aluminum tweeters with silver cables to cloth domes with copper.

I need to adjust to it.


To be honest the 8VS is not Kimber's best effort. It isn't the copper that's the problem IMO it's that they are a low end Kimber speaker cable.

There are quite a few good quality options with a variety of materials that I would choose over the 8VS. One of my favorite under $300 is the Analysis Plus (Black) Oval 12.

Damn. Now I have to start futzing with different speaker cable? :sigh: :D

I only went with the Kimber because my local shop had it at the right price/length. (about $8/ft).

I'll keep the Analysis Plus (Black) Oval 12 on my mind.
 
Interesting thread. As for copper vs silver, I've had similar general impressions:

Silver = more highs. More extension of highs, more clarity in highs, more emphasis of highs. Generally a "brighter" sound with most gear.

Copper = comparatively more mids and bass. Not that highs are lacking, but they are not as pronounced or extended as with silver.

Silver-plated copper = probably the closes thing to "the best of both worlds".

A possibly important factor that I've had difficulty in equalizing when comparing these, though, is that silver wire almost always tends to be thinner gauge than copper. Although some sellers claim that silver's naturally greater conductivity means a thinner wire will serve as well as a thicker one of copper would, I suspect that cost is a more important factor. An all-silver wire as thick as some of the better copper ones would be rather expensive. The silver/copper comparisons are rarely fully equal ir fair, due to this difference. With copper wires, a thinner wire will often deliver limited bass, and therefore produce a sound that emphasizes the highs relatively more. Nevertheless, just from an instinctive response to experiments, I believe the greater highs with silver are probably inherent in the material, rather than just a by-product of the gauge.

There are other factors that make it hard to compare these materials fairly; solid vs stranded can be a factor, purity another, the presence of oxygen possibly another, and whether a "crystalline' structure (as in OHNO continuous-cast copper) exists. The latter factors are often emphasized as important with copper cables, but it's hard to find equivalents (other than % purity) for silver.

One possibly important difference between the metals is also the fact that oxidation greatly impairs copper's conductivity, whereas silver oxide remains highly conductive.
Age and consequent surface oxidation in a copper cable will cause sonic degradation; in a silver wire, it should not. This may be one advantage to silver-plated copper wires. (Read up on "skin effect" for related information.)

Ultimaately, though, cables are a part of a system, and must work synergistically with them. A "bright" speaker might sound better with a copper wire, whereas a "rolled-off" speaker may sound better with a silver wire. The same may be true with amps or other components that sound different.

That said, one of the best, most revealing systems I ever heard was wired with all-silver (both interconnects and speaker cables). It was so sensitive and revealing that even swapping out the 8-inch "jumpers" on the speakers with silver wire of identical length and gauge, but different sources (and presumably different purities and alloyed impurities) made audible differences, consistently audible in blindfolded testing. The same system, when first set up, had copper wires, and such differences could not be heard. Perhaps the additional high-end-detail from the silver wire made the difference? I cannot be sure, because I wasn't involved in any other tweaking that was done. :dunno:

In spite of that experience, and others where I have heard differences when swapping cables, I still tend to fall back on a belief that when sticking with one material (eg, silver or copper), as long as a cable is reasonably good and of sufficient gauge, the differences are often mostly psycho-acoustic, and not truly audible. Beyond a certain point, gains are probably mostly illusory; below that, though, sound can easily be altered and/or compromised. Different materials can and do alter sonics, however: if you don't believe that, just try using a broomstick or a length of rope as a cable.

ULTIMATELY, the best test of what works best with your system, in your space, to your ears --silver or copper?-- is what sounds best to your ears, using your system in your space.
 
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Just a random thought...

(I'm famous for those. :yes:)

Unless you switched from a speaker cable with silver wire to an IDENTICAL speaker cable, from the same manufacturer, identical except for the copper wire, you're not comparing silver to copper, you're comparing two ENTIRELY different pairs of speaker cable.

And, as we all know :)D), entirely different speaker cables will present different resistance, capacitance, and inductance, which will respond differently from each other even when passing identical signals. So, it's an oversimplification to ascribe the audible differences just to the metal in the wire.

Carry on.
 
I'm a fanboy of Analysis-Plus cables going back to 1999/2k or so. Great cables.
mine: A-P Bi-Oval9 copper
 
So I can't really spend $200+ on a pair of speaker cables right now.

But I can get bulk Analysis Plus Chocolate Oval Speaker Cable at $6 a foot, coming in around $90.
http://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=ANCHO
I could probably sell the (or return) the Kimbers for that or most of that.

Any opinions? Am I being penny wise and pound foolish here?
 
Well, since we are T-O-L,

The topic here should read "silver plated copper vs copper". The Q-10 is not silver.

Dialectric,architecture and termination all contribute so it's hard to make generalizations.

I think silver is an "honest" conductor especially if it has a good dialectric (like teflon) covering it. I haven't found it bright at all.

I use 100% silver/teflon ic's and sc's in all my systems. One of them has Magnepan 3.6's and another has custom studio monitors and they both have ribbon tweeters. No brightness or hardness at all.

The biggest surprise about silver was when I started putting together a vintage system years ago. Using early Marantz solid state receivers, I thought nice mellow/warm copper would be best. I had an extra set of these silver cables laying around but didn't even think about trying them. Do I want the "honest" sound coming from early ss? But on a lark I did and that's what is still in there now.

Just like copper, all silver cables are not created equal. Personal thoughts: Silver is a better conductor than copper (a fact). That could be interpreted as being a "faster" cable. Put a cheap aborbtive material around it and it may sound worse than copper (more smear).

btw, I don't know what % of teflon has to be in a material to "legally" call it teflon but the guy that made my cables held a match to them and nothing happened. Next time someone tells you their cables are teflon covered, ask them if you can hold a match up to it. Real teflon doesn't melt....partial teflon?....be careful what you hold it over when you light up.
 
It would almost certainly be better than the Kimber so why not.

I'm honestly surprised at how much the Kimbers have mellowed the presentation out so much as to make the system almost uninteresting. I have way too much invested and there's way too much potential to settle for these.

In the mean time I'm discovering, as should be no surprise, that it actually suits some recordings. But still....

:scratch2:
 
I'm honestly surprised at how much the Kimbers have mellowed the presentation out so much as to make the system almost uninteresting. I have way too much invested and there's way too much potential to settle for these.

In the mean time I'm discovering, as should be no surprise, that it actually suits some recordings. But still....

:scratch2:

The A Plus Oval 12 leans to the warm side without losing detail and interest. It lets the goodie come through and with excellent tonality. The lower end Kimber are a bit rolled off sounding and you lose both detail and some of the drive in the music. The thing I like least about low end Kimber products (that also includes the PBJ, Tonik and Timbre IC's) is that they have a bit of an artificial sound. Like a an animated version of reality rather than reality itself. The Kimber line takes off at the 8TC level for speaker cable and the Hero level for IC's IMO.

Anyway that's just my opinion having owned some...but with your gear YMMV.
 
I brought the Kimbers back and got a full refund. I'm running some in-wall OFC I got a while back until I decide what to do next.

:scratch2:
 
Lamp cord, baby! :D

Kidding, of course. I'll be reading with interest.
 
Wonder if the OP has tried out The Cable Company. They have many products that one can try and they also give advice on cables used in certain systems. I never used them myself, but have seen MANY posts on people who have gone that route and were happy with the results.

There are many companies who offer try before you buy out there in Net-Land. Music Direct offers returns on items as an example. Then there are companies like DH Labs, Zu Audio (also sells on FleaBay), and many others who will let you return (only pay shipping) if you are not happy.

Another way is to buy used from Audiogon and try them out, sell them if you do not like them. Trouble is no guarantee of reselling if you do not like them.

Finding a cable to match up with your components, room, and your preferences takes some time and effort. It is all about synergy with everything involved. Enjoy the ride, try out as many companies as you can until you find what YOU like best in your rig.
 
Wonder if the OP has tried out The Cable Company.
I did check them out. And ended up ordering a set of used Analysis Plus Oval 12s from their Used Cable website. (These 12's don't have the "black" designation that Art suggested though)

Good thing is that they are 14 feet which is twice as long as I need. That gives me the option to cut them in half and re-sell half; cut them, double them up and run a separate cable to each post. Or just use them as they are (spades to bananas)
 
I would tend to concur with the others in this post. The DH Labs wire is known for being spirited, and that series of wire has never been considered exceptional.

While some generalizations with tweeter materials can be made, the speaker design is going to determine how much sparkle a speaker has. The designers intent and crossover design factors into what a speaker will do more than just diaphragm material.

With the price constraints you have, it makes sense to go to the used market. Since you want a speaker that isn't laid back, there might be some cables to look actively for. One speaker wire that I think exceptionally good for a modest price is the Audio Magic Extreme speaker wire. It's been discontiuned, so you are going to have to run across it.This is a copper wire with a double coat of silver, and has a wonderful blend of the two sounds. They were pretty inexpensive to start, and if you can find a used pair, should be within your budget.

Another good wire to consider is the Straightwire products. They are very neutral and extended. Once again an excellent wire for the money, and the company has lots of experience designing and building cables. Something like the Maestro II would fall into your price range. Maybe you could get one step higher if you get lucky.

Just some thoughts from a simple barnyard animal. Want a different opinion? Go talk to the cows or the horses, they are quite wise. Don't talk to the chickens. Fowl are known to lie, and cheat at cards.

Regards
Mister Pig
 
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