Table to Cart to Phono Stage Ratios....

[RuSsMaN]

I've been listening to vinyl off and on for 30 yrs or so, more 'seriously' in the past 5 or 6 years. Never owned anything GREAT, but I have a few good tables. Thorens 160, B&O 4000, and a Quadraflex 610T. I have probably 300 12" albums, and maybe 50-60 45's.

There is the history, here is the question.

Let's say I go buy a new, entry table, ie Rega, Sumiko, Music Hall etc. I spend $300-$500 on said table.

1. Should I buy an 'upgrade' cartridge, and if so, what price point? Would a $100 cart be an upgrade over the stock (in general)?

2. What should I spend on a phono stage? A third the cost of the table? Half? Equal to? More?

Just wondering if there are any general rules fellow entusiasts usually abide by, and far as pricing goes - and for entry level (new) tables - what is the point of dimenishing returns on carts and phono stages (ie, at what point I should just upgrade the table, vs spending more on a cart/phono stage)?

Cheers,
Russ

 

[grumpy]

I take it your pre has no phono on it. If not is it a tube pre and amp and would you like to continue with a tube phono stage ?

 

[RuSsMaN]

I don't have any preamps, just line stages.

I don't care about tube or not, as far as the phono stage goes. I guess what I'm asking is how does the price ratio match up from table to phono stage, for optimum performance, buying new.

I have 2 rigs in question right now. Both have a gruntball $120 Parasound MM/MC stage. Just fyi:

Rig 1:

Polk SDA SRS 2
Carver TFM-45
Melos SHA-1 (tube line stage)
AMC CD8b
B&O 4000

Rig 2:
Spendor 1/2
Beard Amp (100wpc tube)
Dodd Audio Line Stage (tube)
Marantz CD63-se
Thorens 160

Cheers,
Russ

 

[Ol' Ken]

This is an interesting thread. I'm hoping to buy a new TT this year and I was wondering the same thing.

 

[Yamaha B-2]

IMHO there is more improvement in sound with $$ spent in vinyl than in the rest of ones rig. So get the best you can afford. The "good" phono preamps start at around $600 (or less, used - they don't wear out). That said, I have owned the NAD PP-2 with the larger wallwart and thought it was an exceptionally good sounding small box for less than $150, new. Not like the more expensive units, but still fine. It is also capable of being used with both MM & MC cartridges.

Another way to go is get one of the Yamaha C-X (2a or higher) or CX-xxx preamps. They all have great phono stages and the handle both MM & MC cartridges. I sold a C-85 several months ago and the guy who bought did so to use only the phono stage. Something I would never have thought of. Its phono stage rivals my Threshold FET 10/pc, which is one of Nelson Pass' best designs. I sold for $175, so there is a terrific phono stage for only $175 and can use as a full-function preamp, should you wish.

 

[melofelo]

...

i would estimate that the law of diminishing returns on turntables kicks in once you go past the mid-fi tables. For that reason...going from a thorens 160 to an entry level rega ( p2 or p3) may not be as clear a sound per £ or $ upgrade as you might hope for.In fact, the td 160 and p3 in bog standard form are probably in the same *sonic* league. The thorens might even overtake a rega simply by adding a better arm.The base unit of the thorens i presume is a three point suspended design and theoretically should give improved isolation from vibration over a rega.Some have said that the weakest part of a thorens deck has always been a throens arm...while some have argued that a modifed thorens can give many *super decks* a good run for their sonic money...
see here :
http://www.hi-fiworld.co.uk/hfw/oldeworldehtml/thorenstd150.html
Turntables are critical of engineering...the more money you spend..the better should be the engineering for unlocking the magic in the grooves.Before splashing out on the new *mega buck* decks as you seek audio nirvana..i'd be tempted to see whats left lying around from the superfi days of the late 80's going cheaply...
logic dm101's..heybrooks..systemdeks...thorens td 321's...townsend elite rock..pink triangle pt too...little pink thing..roksan radius...xeries etc ( i'm still trying to find the last one :thmbsp: )...
they may not look as glitsy as the new decks that are on the scene now..but back when vinyl was king of the hifi rack...there was an awful lot of decks beginning to make the *reference* linn sondek look a little overpriced...no matter what new gizmo they stuck on it to keep it sounding competitive...there are some that say once you hear a systemdek II in full sonic flight & well set up...you'll save the difference between its price and the price of the coveted sondek and go out and buy more records instead...apparently it is that good.With that in mind..if you have a decent deck already..there is only one way to make sure you get an improvement when you supposedly *upgrade*...forget what the magazines say..forget what salesmen say...even forget what we here on ak say...if you can't *hear* a sonic improvement..there *isn't* a sonic improvement..and so there *isn't* a need to spend more..
let your ears decide

 

[Yamaha B-2]

You are comparing a supsended TT (Thorens) to a non-suspened TT (Rega). That, in itself, provides a different sound. Most older TTs are suspended, so will sound different from a Rega. As stated, you must listen yourself to see if you like what you hear.

 

[melofelo]

...

very true...although pitched at roughly the same price both decks use a different methods to getting the information out of the grooves..rega seems to go for the keep it simple..spend more money on a better arm and decent motor approach..thorens appears to take the the classic suspended design route to give better isolation approach...
the following link seems to provide a good grading guide as to the turntable heirachy available as far as cost versus sound...
many of which i've never even heard of so i found it an interresting read.. :yes:

http://www.high-endaudio.com/RC-Tables.html#Oth

 

[bear-hifi]

Like you, I have poked around in the whole vinyl thing and never really got into it until now. I bought Jims MF 7 and I bought some new vinyl. I must say that I love it and I rather listen to it than CDs most of the time. I have had several mid level tables form the 70s with no results. I then bought a Techincs SP-15 and built a table using a Rega 300b arm. I really did not car for it either. I was using a OM30 cart on all these by the way. I then come across a 160 that did not work completely but would play and sounded good. This got me thinking about vinyl again.

When I got the new records and the MMF I started trying all kinds of different phono stage and everything I used sounded good to me. Even running it through a modern day receiver. If I was you I would mod the 160 and by a good cart and buy new records. I just personally do not care for older/used recorders anymore. If you remember, Jim uses a Dyanco pas tube pre amp for his phono stage and that sounds great to me.


From my experience, I would put it all in this order

Cart/new vinyl
Table
Set up
Phono

I do recall seeing a site that gave the ratios that our looking for but I cant find it right now. I will keep looking. I was going to direct you to the same site as melofelo... good stuff.

 

[ddarch]

Hi,

I second looking into the Music Hall Turntables. I picked up an MMF-7 lightly used and love that table. I owned an MMF-5 before that, and honestly the sound was not greater than a TD-160 I owned at the same time. I am not familiar with your B&0, but I know the MMF-7 is in a league above the Thorens 160. (Which is still a great table.)

The stock MMF-7 comes with a great Goldring cart that does not need upgrading, in my opinion.

In your shoes, I would keep your Parasound pre and listen to whatever new TT you get through that for at least a month. I believe in changing out only one component at a time. Who knows, the MMF-7 may mate sensationally with the Parasound.

Personally, I have tried most of the under-250 preamps, and I like the Creek the best. But that's me and my system. I never liked the Parasound you own. With the rest of my set up, it was harsh sounding in the treble region.

I never abide by price ratios...one company's flagship may sound like crap in your system, and another "budget component" could be fantastic.

You get my drift...

Dave