The Case For Thick Speaker Wire
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bluesky
Addicted Member
You just have to find the right cables for your specific stereo amp-speakers. That's it. Which ever ones sound the best.
Speaker cables do make a big difference!! :thmbsp:
You'll know it when you find them, immediately. You will be saying to yourself: "Oh yeah!!! That's it!!!" - At least, that's the way it was for me.
I'm not sure about interconnects, but I guess they do too. :yes:
I just use good ones, works for me...done deal.
Food for Thought:
1. Maybe just try some 'broadcasting' type cables like what they use in radio stations. I use broadcasting cables myself...works perfect and sounds "wonderous".
2. Or research on the internet and see what different recording studios use. Seems that would be good enough for a stereo system. If your really into it research what type of connections they are using too. You know, the kind that 'lock'. I may go that route too...someday.
Speaker cables do make a big difference!! :thmbsp:
You'll know it when you find them, immediately. You will be saying to yourself: "Oh yeah!!! That's it!!!" - At least, that's the way it was for me.
I'm not sure about interconnects, but I guess they do too. :yes:
I just use good ones, works for me...done deal.Food for Thought:
1. Maybe just try some 'broadcasting' type cables like what they use in radio stations. I use broadcasting cables myself...works perfect and sounds "wonderous".
2. Or research on the internet and see what different recording studios use. Seems that would be good enough for a stereo system. If your really into it research what type of connections they are using too. You know, the kind that 'lock'. I may go that route too...someday.
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What is wire?
Well if I am going to run a computer model, this wire has resistivity of 1.7 x e-6 ohm-cm, it has inductance that depends on the shape and size and form and capacitance that depends on whether it is coaxial, parallel pair, twisted pair etc. Think of it as a 'transmission line' not wire.
What is the termination?
That speaker is quoted as "8 ohms nominal" and is anything but:
The load is actually and impedance that is a vector of magnitude and angle and not a pure resistance. It will vary with frequency. There may be points where this load is not resistive at all, being purely inductive or capacitive.
What is driving?
That amp is quoted as X watts into 8 ohms but it is not likely to ever see 8 ohms resistive outside of a test lab.
What is the transient current available into the real load (ie a complex impedance) above that is connected at the end of the 'transmission line' above?
Real world result?
The influence of the transmission line depends greatly on the impedance stability of the speakers and the drive capability of the amp into complex impedance loads.
Given the number of amps and speakers available (some that are noted as being 'difficult') it is possible for and almost infinite number of actual results.
Conclusion.
If speaker and crossover designs were perfect and if amplifiers were really complex load tolerant then the 'wire' has little effect.
But that day has yet to come.
BrocLuno
Lunatic Member
This topic interests me because I have to run speaker wire 25 ft to make things work in the new remodel. Bummer I know, but that's life. So lampcord will not work.
Years ago, I got some marine grade wire (tinned) and it worked well. Solders well and does not easily oxidize. Now I have to go out and actually buy it.
Problem is that it will be running behind the base boards and the whole house electrical system is within a foot of the run in the same wall. Talk about inductive coupling
So now I need 10 gauge wire (Infinities at 4 ohm) with double shielding jacket. This is not a fun search
We all know that wire makes a difference in turntables. No one argues that. Extremely small signal and the whole audio spectrum delivered evenly and without coloration. Why would it be any different at 80 wpc than at .008 wpc. Still have to move the signal without losing the audio :scratch2:
Oh, and to the folks that say "it all has to go through fuse, thin wire inside component" - that is not my observation at all. In say my Infinities, the only fuse is on the tweeter side, the woof's get full line feed modd'd by the xover. And yeah, short run inside the amp, but that's inside a grounded case with some shielding from the world, not the situation once you leave the chassis.
I think twisted pairs (or tripples) are maybe a good idea to cancel outside fields just like the old days with 300 ohm twin lead. The leads radiate and receive. If they are adjacent, there can be crosstalk. Short wires don't have enough length to get to full wave or even decent fraction of that. But speaker runs can get there quite easily :scratch2:
Years ago, I got some marine grade wire (tinned) and it worked well. Solders well and does not easily oxidize. Now I have to go out and actually buy it.
Problem is that it will be running behind the base boards and the whole house electrical system is within a foot of the run in the same wall. Talk about inductive coupling
So now I need 10 gauge wire (Infinities at 4 ohm) with double shielding jacket. This is not a fun search
We all know that wire makes a difference in turntables. No one argues that. Extremely small signal and the whole audio spectrum delivered evenly and without coloration. Why would it be any different at 80 wpc than at .008 wpc. Still have to move the signal without losing the audio :scratch2:
Oh, and to the folks that say "it all has to go through fuse, thin wire inside component" - that is not my observation at all. In say my Infinities, the only fuse is on the tweeter side, the woof's get full line feed modd'd by the xover. And yeah, short run inside the amp, but that's inside a grounded case with some shielding from the world, not the situation once you leave the chassis.
I think twisted pairs (or tripples) are maybe a good idea to cancel outside fields just like the old days with 300 ohm twin lead. The leads radiate and receive. If they are adjacent, there can be crosstalk. Short wires don't have enough length to get to full wave or even decent fraction of that. But speaker runs can get there quite easily :scratch2:
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jazzmans
Super Member
I use 12 AWG for a couple of hundred plus foot runs, it's meant for use in low voltage outdoor power applications. Buy it at Home Depot
12-65 2/c low voltage lndscape lght reads the label on the spool.
Years back I used coaxial cable (the kind that cable tv is sent over) for long runs, it was difficult to work with, because one of the cables was solid core, but worked very well.
ymmv.
jaz
Rick Vestal
Have a nice day and duck!
Interesting story regarding wire...
I have a 5hp Campbell air compressor in the garage with a 6 foot power cord on it. When it turns on it pops the breaker. Every single time. I added a 6 foot extension cord to it. It hasn't popped a breaker in 10 years. Remove the extension cord, it pops the breaker.
Never really looked into it as I don't care, but it does go to show that something is at play, and it's reproducible every time.
I have a 5hp Campbell air compressor in the garage with a 6 foot power cord on it. When it turns on it pops the breaker. Every single time. I added a 6 foot extension cord to it. It hasn't popped a breaker in 10 years. Remove the extension cord, it pops the breaker.
Never really looked into it as I don't care, but it does go to show that something is at play, and it's reproducible every time.
The most likely explanation is that the motor's inrush current without the extension cord exceeds the breaker's rating. The added resistance of the extension cord reduces the inrush current just enough to keep from popping the breaker.
eletism?
This POV is (IMO) eletist and untrue. That hasn't been my experience.
Or am I truly delusional in believing my system is revealing?
This POV is (IMO) eletist and untrue. That hasn't been my experience.
Or am I truly delusional in believing my system is revealing?
Brindabella
Well-Known Member
I am finding this a fascinating thread and realising just how little I know on this subject. My technical skills are modest at best, I don't even know if 12 gauge is thicker than 16 gauge, my bad, so a lot is going over my head, but I am still learning heaps.
Regardless, this debate has been running since 1979 when Monster Cable first made its de'but. I worked in a audio store from 81-85, one of the owners was esoteric in disposition the other was an electrical engineer and the shop's audio technician, a practical man. The short version it was a heated debate about too or not to carrying this product.
A simple test was conducted, one amplifier (a) was cheap cord of the day and (b) was this new expensive product Monster Cable and two pairs of the same speaker. So we played/listened, then swapped the cables on the speakers and played/listened, then swapped again and again and again, OK we will try a blind test, different music..... :scratch2:
Outcome: There was a significant improvement with Monster Cable. Five pairs of ears, hours of listening and a 100% accuracy picking the speaker cable in the blind test.
Since 1979 the speaker cable and interconnect industry has exploded. I still use interconnect cable to adjust tone on my systems: Monster when I want to accent the base (although I have since stopped buying Monster on ethical grounds), basic QED if I want something neutral and Chored if I am looking for top end detail.
I have a huge array of speak cable and I apply the same principle. I understand that it should make no difference what cable I use but experience and my ears tell the ultimate story. Viva la speaker cable industry :yes:
Regardless, this debate has been running since 1979 when Monster Cable first made its de'but. I worked in a audio store from 81-85, one of the owners was esoteric in disposition the other was an electrical engineer and the shop's audio technician, a practical man. The short version it was a heated debate about too or not to carrying this product.
A simple test was conducted, one amplifier (a) was cheap cord of the day and (b) was this new expensive product Monster Cable and two pairs of the same speaker. So we played/listened, then swapped the cables on the speakers and played/listened, then swapped again and again and again, OK we will try a blind test, different music..... :scratch2:
Outcome: There was a significant improvement with Monster Cable. Five pairs of ears, hours of listening and a 100% accuracy picking the speaker cable in the blind test.
Since 1979 the speaker cable and interconnect industry has exploded. I still use interconnect cable to adjust tone on my systems: Monster when I want to accent the base (although I have since stopped buying Monster on ethical grounds), basic QED if I want something neutral and Chored if I am looking for top end detail.
I have a huge array of speak cable and I apply the same principle. I understand that it should make no difference what cable I use but experience and my ears tell the ultimate story. Viva la speaker cable industry :yes:
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Hi,I own Fulton gold speaker cable,pretty good gauge wire from 1980",and have been very happy with the sound of my system,nothing harsh,very open sound and tight bass.Very natural,should I look for something else?Like to change all the wires inside my speakers for better gauge for mid and bass,Yvan Donald.
MannyE
Exterminate!
Curious about Monster Cable and the ethical concerns. What's going on with them?
Sent from my TARDIS at the restaurant at the end of the universe while eating Phil.
marqueemoon
Gimme indie rock!
Gibsonian
Super Member
Betting the silver had something to do with that.
Mrppv
Active Member
Elfasto
Super Member
OKAY, I'm going to fan the flames here and present my point of view.
(Sorry Moderators)
The math formula for calculating skin effect:
Skin effect on wires with relation to frequency of AC
Now, some of you do claim to have better sound out of your system when switching to a larger gauge of wire. I'm not going to argue with you on that observation. I'm not there to hear your systems, so I will take your observations as the truth from your point of view.
Now, Skin Effect by definition (dictionary)
the tendency of a high-frequency alternating current to flow through only the outer layer of a conductor.
So, by definition, the higher the frequency, the more pronounced the skin effect.
Reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skin_effect
Reference: http://www.belden.com/blog/broadcastav/understanding-skin-effect-and-frequency.cfm
Now, the Belden website I linked in my references show that at the frequencies that we use (up to 20 kHz) going past a certain gauge of wire isn't going to reduce your AC resistance because the skin effect comes into play.
(cut and paste from the belden website)
Basis:
Depth at 20 kHz = 18.4 mils (.0184 in.) Radius x 2 = 36.8 mils (.0368 in.) Diameter
Amount of conductor used at 20 kHz, based on conductor size
Conductors Diameter % of conductor used
24 AWG---------0.024 -------100% at 20 kHz
22 AWG---------0.031-------100% at 20 kHz
12 AWG---------0.093 --------75% at 20 kHz
10 AWG---------0.115 --------68% at 20 kHz
So, in regards to high frequency content of our music, thin wire is all we need.
Now, low frequencies will have the same skin effect, but the skin depth is going to be much thicker
Reference: http://ncalculators.com/electronics/skin-effect-calculator.htm
Using this calculator, at 20 Hz the skin depth will be just under 17mm (5/8").
So, in order for the AC resistance to equal DC resistance at 20Hz, one would need 2/0 gauge cable. That's Welding Cable. Nobody would run that. Unless you have a massive support system for wires, you'd rip the terminals out of your amp and speakers.
So, in my point of view, going to a thicker wire in relation to high frequencies is not a bad idea up to a point. A thin wire will work just fine because of the skin effect at high frequencies where AC resistance will equal DC resistance.
At low frequencies, we're screwed simply because we won't have enough conductor, so our AC resistance will alway be greater than the DC resistance unless you run a solid hunk of 5/8" copper rod.
As for amperage and voltage capacity, the thicker wire will always win over thiner wire, especially at DC or low frequency AC. More copper = more capacity.
Now, as I understand Litz conductors, they are basically stranded wire with each strand insulated from each other (in the most basic sense of what Litz wires are), so they have a advantage over standard solid or stranded conventional wires simply because they would have a huge amount of conductor area that the high frequencies need. By the definition of Skin Effect, Litz wires will not have any effect on low frequencies because there simply isn't enough copper there for AC resistance to equal DC resistance.
(Sorry Moderators
)The math formula for calculating skin effect:
Skin effect on wires with relation to frequency of AC
Now, some of you do claim to have better sound out of your system when switching to a larger gauge of wire. I'm not going to argue with you on that observation. I'm not there to hear your systems, so I will take your observations as the truth from your point of view.
Now, Skin Effect by definition (dictionary)
the tendency of a high-frequency alternating current to flow through only the outer layer of a conductor.
So, by definition, the higher the frequency, the more pronounced the skin effect.
Reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skin_effect
Reference: http://www.belden.com/blog/broadcastav/understanding-skin-effect-and-frequency.cfm
Now, the Belden website I linked in my references show that at the frequencies that we use (up to 20 kHz) going past a certain gauge of wire isn't going to reduce your AC resistance because the skin effect comes into play.
(cut and paste from the belden website)
Basis:
Depth at 20 kHz = 18.4 mils (.0184 in.) Radius x 2 = 36.8 mils (.0368 in.) Diameter
Amount of conductor used at 20 kHz, based on conductor size
Conductors Diameter % of conductor used
24 AWG---------0.024 -------100% at 20 kHz
22 AWG---------0.031-------100% at 20 kHz
12 AWG---------0.093 --------75% at 20 kHz
10 AWG---------0.115 --------68% at 20 kHz
So, in regards to high frequency content of our music, thin wire is all we need.
Now, low frequencies will have the same skin effect, but the skin depth is going to be much thicker
Reference: http://ncalculators.com/electronics/skin-effect-calculator.htm
Using this calculator, at 20 Hz the skin depth will be just under 17mm (5/8").
So, in order for the AC resistance to equal DC resistance at 20Hz, one would need 2/0 gauge cable. That's Welding Cable. Nobody would run that. Unless you have a massive support system for wires, you'd rip the terminals out of your amp and speakers.
So, in my point of view, going to a thicker wire in relation to high frequencies is not a bad idea up to a point. A thin wire will work just fine because of the skin effect at high frequencies where AC resistance will equal DC resistance.
At low frequencies, we're screwed simply because we won't have enough conductor, so our AC resistance will alway be greater than the DC resistance unless you run a solid hunk of 5/8" copper rod.
As for amperage and voltage capacity, the thicker wire will always win over thiner wire, especially at DC or low frequency AC. More copper = more capacity.
Now, as I understand Litz conductors, they are basically stranded wire with each strand insulated from each other (in the most basic sense of what Litz wires are), so they have a advantage over standard solid or stranded conventional wires simply because they would have a huge amount of conductor area that the high frequencies need. By the definition of Skin Effect, Litz wires will not have any effect on low frequencies because there simply isn't enough copper there for AC resistance to equal DC resistance.
Elfasto
Super Member
Now, all of you that read my last post are probably thinking "Hey, this means my BiWired system should be superior to a single wire!!"
Theoretically, yes, a biwired system should be better, but according to the calculations for skin effect, your wires would have to be very thick for the low frequencies because that's what you would need for AC resistance to equal DC resistance, and if one did that, the low frequencies would tend to gravitate to the thicker wires due to lower AC resistance. The High frequencies would not care since it has plenty of wire either way. Again, unless you run 2/0 gauge cable for the bass, there simply isn't enough copper to reduce the AC resistance to a minimal amount for this to work properly.
"But I hear more detail and everything is clearer!!"
Yep, makes sense because you have more copper for the higher frequencies to transfer from your amplifier to your speakers. "Clarity" and "Detail" are adjectives for what we hear in the higher frequencies.
Like I said, I'm not arguing with any of you. If you say that everything sounds clearer, more detail, and increased clarity because of thicker cables, it's due to the skin effect and it's effect on AC resistance at higher frequencies. You simply added enough copper so the higher frequencies have less resistance. At low frequencies, it doesn't matter idly squat if you bump up the wire from 18 ga to 12 ga simply because that's not enough to make any difference at those frequencies.
Of course wire length is going to make a difference, so to get the most out of your system, keep them no longer than needed, but even that is going to be a VERY minor amount, simply because the DC resistance of copper wire is rather low per foot.
To sum up my soapbox speech, run a decent gauge (12 to 10) and decent quality copper wire and be happy about it, because you would be giving all that you can practically do for your system.
Theoretically, yes, a biwired system should be better, but according to the calculations for skin effect, your wires would have to be very thick for the low frequencies because that's what you would need for AC resistance to equal DC resistance, and if one did that, the low frequencies would tend to gravitate to the thicker wires due to lower AC resistance. The High frequencies would not care since it has plenty of wire either way. Again, unless you run 2/0 gauge cable for the bass, there simply isn't enough copper to reduce the AC resistance to a minimal amount for this to work properly.
"But I hear more detail and everything is clearer!!"
Yep, makes sense because you have more copper for the higher frequencies to transfer from your amplifier to your speakers. "Clarity" and "Detail" are adjectives for what we hear in the higher frequencies.
Like I said, I'm not arguing with any of you. If you say that everything sounds clearer, more detail, and increased clarity because of thicker cables, it's due to the skin effect and it's effect on AC resistance at higher frequencies. You simply added enough copper so the higher frequencies have less resistance. At low frequencies, it doesn't matter idly squat if you bump up the wire from 18 ga to 12 ga simply because that's not enough to make any difference at those frequencies.
Of course wire length is going to make a difference, so to get the most out of your system, keep them no longer than needed, but even that is going to be a VERY minor amount, simply because the DC resistance of copper wire is rather low per foot.
To sum up my soapbox speech, run a decent gauge (12 to 10) and decent quality copper wire and be happy about it, because you would be giving all that you can practically do for your system.
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Elfasto
Super Member
From a mathematical point of view, unless each foil is at least 0.66 mm thick, they are no better than a good quality 10 ga standard cable. The Verastarr website gave no reference to how thick the foils are.
Their higher end cables do feature gold plating. I don't consider that a advantage unless it's simply for corrosion protection, but then again, inside a house where the enviroment is fairly well controlled temperature and humidity wise, how much protection does copper wire need? For the terminal ends, sure, but inside the cable??
Reference: http://eddy-current.com/conductivity-of-metals-sorted-by-resistivity/
They do look nice, but I'm not sure if they are $400/foot nice.
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