z-adamson
Addicted Member
Joke? No.
While the unused woofers dont "produce or aid" the speakers in action, it's pretty well known that they subtract from the speakers in action.
Question is, how much.
The downside to multiple pairs of speakers in one room
- Thread starter z-adamson
- Start date
Joke? No.
While the unused woofers dont "produce or aid" the speakers in action, it's pretty well known that they subtract from the speakers in action.
Question is, how much.
asilker
Super Member
Glad you brought this up, I have also been pro-cotton and anti-polyester for years. thought I was the only one concerned about glaring diffraction caused by my swishy pants
also look how easy it is to mess up somebody's quote and ruin context:
^ whoah, dan really speaking your mind there
If Alvin Gold is correct, then there is a difference in the type of acoustic influence caused by furnishings as opposed to having undriven speakers in the room, with the latter being "particularly insidious" (or, as he more meaningfully wrote, "the kind of distortion eliminated by SSDs (time-smearing distortion) is an important one").
The nice thing about this is that it's nothing to worry about for the OP or anyone else. Just listen both ways, with only the driven speakers in the room, then with one's usual collection of unused speakers in the room (or with the presence or absence of anything else in the room a person has concerns about). You either will or will not hear a difference that matters to you; either way, there's no longer any wondering or worrying involved. Mr. Gold heard a difference that mattered to him, and wrote, "I have auditioned loudspeakers under SSD conditions for a number of years—but I wasn't foolish enough to subject myself to the not inconsiderable inconvenience without first establishing that the differences were not merely audible, but also musically important. You can pontificate until the cows come home, but with a good, well-optimized hi-fi system, the facts quite literally speak for themselves." https://www.stereophile.com/content/controversy-single-speaker-dem-myth-page-2
I'm sure that the type of system a person uses has an impact on this, too. As mentioned earlier in the thread, Mark Wheeler opined that speakers with a multitude of drivers and crossovers are "the most sinful adulterers of timing." It could well be that a person's choice of speaker is already so compromised with respect to time-smearing that it swamps any difference that the presence or absence of extra speakers in the room would make. Gold noted the effect of additional transducers "is manifested as a loss of pitch and timing integrity quite distinct from the classes of effects that arise from furnishing and room boundaries. Tonal and other more commonly anticipated effects are not usually severe, so the degradation is sometimes missed first time round by the less experienced listener. We're talking now about quite subtle differences, but high fidelity is all about quite subtle differences."
I wonder what percentage of AK members have extra, unused speakers in their listening room. I've had a component system for over 40 years and never had more than one pair of speakers in the room at a time (and mostly have never owned more than one pair of speakers at a time). Of all the people I know who enjoy stereo systems, there is only one who has undriven speakers in the room (a soundbar for a television that is on a different wall than his stereo system). Is it common to have a room full of speakers?
This may be a dumb question but I’ll ask anyway. Does having unused speakers connected to a speaker selector switch count as shorting? I’m guessing no but want to be sure before I start lugging coffins up and down stairs as I begin testing this theory. Thx.
JoeESP9
ESL's & tubes since 83
AFAIK that would be no. Double pole switches usually do not short inactive sections.
asilker
Super Member
No, your speakers are not shorted.
The unused speakers should be connected red to black to short them. Shorting just means that two parts are connected outright.
twiiii
Lunatic Member
We had four demo rooms at our store, And when we took on Klipsch the second time in the 70's we emptied one room and started out with pair of Korner Horns, a belle in the center and two Cornwalls opposite. So we could do Quad if we wanted to. Customers still wanted to compare so we brought in some Symphony, Concert grands, larger Altec, and Mcintosh. We had to use the MQ 107 with the Macs of course. And to make things fair we used Urei 539's on all the Klipsch, and Rane Eq's on the Bozaks. I will say the Macs never sounded as tight as they did when they were in their own room. But I will say this you haven't really experienced the capabilities of Big Klipsch until you have voiced them for a particular room. True Mac speakers will go an Octave lower, and the highs were flatter back in the 70's. But the dynamics of a Klipsch speaker is so effortless. It really takes some big horse power to get ML-4's and Concert Grands to compete with a Klipschorn pushed with MC 275 or MC 2125. They compete but they don't win dynamically. The room never sounded as good with a bunch of speakers as it did with just the Cornerhorns and Cornwalls. Some of the clarity went away. Now was that because of those additional 30 12 in and 4 15 in woofers we brought into the room. The enclosures certainly didn't flex that much. What was it? Voicing changed a bit here and there and was corrected. But the sound was perceived to have changed. Four of us were either active musicians or in the process of moving on. We couldn't agree on what was different, but there was difference.
We recently changed furniture at home. I drug out the Spectrum analyzer, what a can worms. My bass from 63 to 200 hz was all messed up and the midrange around the 500 HZ octave had changed, too. You wouldn't think two Flexsteel Sofas, a Erkones recliner and moving things 6 inches here and and a foot there could make such a difference but it can.
So adding speaker systems to room can do the same thing by their physical presence. And additional woofers are part of that, but again, what part? .
We recently changed furniture at home. I drug out the Spectrum analyzer, what a can worms. My bass from 63 to 200 hz was all messed up and the midrange around the 500 HZ octave had changed, too. You wouldn't think two Flexsteel Sofas, a Erkones recliner and moving things 6 inches here and and a foot there could make such a difference but it can.
So adding speaker systems to room can do the same thing by their physical presence. And additional woofers are part of that, but again, what part? .
jblnut
Don't Overthink It
I will say that I have learned everything in the room matters to some degree. Couches and chairs can damp response and really affect the bass response. Credenzas and cabinets (and unused speakers) can act as resonance chambers and affect both upper bass and lower mids. Curtains, paintings and pictures can all help or hurt the highs, depending on how they are laid out in the room.
What I don't get is the closed-minded response of some members who have poo-poo'd the idea of more than a single pair of speakers in a room. Some of these members are <ahem> quite outspoken in their pursuits of multiple sources on the other end of the chain, perhaps to the point of obsession. So it's OK to have multiple turntables, and multiple arms and multiple cartridges, but not speakers ? Look in the mirror folks...you're only fooling yourself. There is no right or wrong way to listen to your music, in your room with your gear. If you like one song on system/speaker A and another on B, more power to you
.
jblnut
What I don't get is the closed-minded response of some members who have poo-poo'd the idea of more than a single pair of speakers in a room. Some of these members are <ahem> quite outspoken in their pursuits of multiple sources on the other end of the chain, perhaps to the point of obsession. So it's OK to have multiple turntables, and multiple arms and multiple cartridges, but not speakers ? Look in the mirror folks...you're only fooling yourself. There is no right or wrong way to listen to your music, in your room with your gear. If you like one song on system/speaker A and another on B, more power to you
. jblnut
Cool story twiii
That sounds like some fun times to be able to do comparisons of those monster iconic speakers of the day beside each other. It also must've been a pretty large room to I'm thinking.
That sounds like some fun times to be able to do comparisons of those monster iconic speakers of the day beside each other. It also must've been a pretty large room to I'm thinking.I will say that I have learned everything in the room matters to some degree. Couches and chairs can damp response and really affect the bass response. Credenzas and cabinets (and unused speakers) can act as resonance chambers and affect both upper bass and lower mids. Curtains, paintings and pictures can all help or hurt the highs, depending on how they are laid out in the room.
What I don't get is the closed-minded response of some members who have poo-poo'd the idea of more than a single pair of speakers in a room. Some of these members are <ahem> quite outspoken in their pursuits of multiple sources on the other end of the chain, perhaps to the point of obsession. So it's OK to have multiple turntables, and multiple arms and multiple cartridges, but not speakers ? Look in the mirror folks...you're only fooling yourself. There is no right or wrong way to listen to your music, in your room with your gear. If you like one song on system/speaker A and another on B, more power to you
I agree that there is no right or wrong way to listen to your music, that each person decides what is important to them and pursues it. So why the talk of being close-minded or of fooling ourselves? If I find that one pair of speakers in my room makes it easier for me to follow the various lines that each instrument is taking, and that the ensemble seems to be playing together better (as if, as one comment at Stereophile mentioned, the band "had practiced their craft more"), then I'm not being close-minded or fooling myself, it's just that I've chosen to give up easy switching to other speaker choices in favor of what is, to my ears, better sound. If others hear it differently, or simply make different choices to enhance their love of music, then I'm happy for them.
Have to say I'm a believer that they can have a negative effect. I was hauling a pair of large floor standers in my Expedition several years ago. Playing the JBL Premium sound system at pretty loud levels, which usually sounded great. I noticed the system sounded terrible and finally realized that the pair of speakers I was hauling were smearing the bass. It sounded like a muddy mess.
toxcrusadr
Omelette au Fromage
I can definitely see that in a vehicle. Small space, extra speakers with large woofers acting as passives. Possibly a rather different situation from a larger room with the extra speakers farther away from the active ones, but it seems clear the effect was real in your case.
triode17
Super Member
Let's try a test. Run the speakers you normally do, then put your finger against an unused woofer cone. Is there much vibration? Is there as much vibration as the active cones? Room furnishings have a much greater effect on sound.
musichal
poet emeritus
Of course room furnishings have an effect on sound. Some good, some not. I've never seen any specs on furniture excursion, though. Quite a few here treat their rooms with absorptive panels and bass traps in order to ameliorate environmental effects. I had a buddy who always removed a large vase (and a couple other items) from his room when listening, which at the time I found somewhat odd.
I won't argue about whether the effects of having other speakers in the room has more, less, or worse effects than most furnishings, but it seems logical to me that unused speakers, being what they are, would likely be more and worse than a sofa. Perhaps I'm mistaken. Doesn't matter. Having extra speakers in the room bothers me, so I don't. If it doesn't bother you, then it certainly doesn't me for your room. Kings and castles.
JoeESP9
ESL's & tubes since 83
Every single thing in a room has an effect on the sound. When something vibrates in sympathy with the source that's called resonance. Resonate is what unused speakers do. Resonance effects the sound in different ways than a passive absorber (most furniture).
Personally, I don't care how others set up their systems. However, the fact that unused speakers in a room have a negative effect is indisputable. VINYLADIKT experienced an extreme case. That just supports what some of us including Linn are saying.
Personally, I don't care how others set up their systems. However, the fact that unused speakers in a room have a negative effect is indisputable. VINYLADIKT experienced an extreme case. That just supports what some of us including Linn are saying.
To claim that is fact is nonsense
Todd Dodds
Super Member
A pair of big fat ladies with a big flowery hats could have made a muddy mess of VINYLADIKT's sound in an Expedition, too. The same big fat ladies in a Suburban may have sounded better, or absolutely the same. There's no "settled science" here.
Can we all agree that a single set of speakers, with or without additional inactive speakers, sounds better than no speakers?
triode17
Super Member
I have designed recording studios before. You have to figure out the Absorption Coefficient for everything in the room in order to determine how much damping to fill the room with. Here in my living room, I have three 2x4' panels of 2" Auralex foam on the rear wall to absorb flutter echoes. Plus, I added a Lenrd Bass Trap in one corner that had overactive Bass response. So, with all this true absorption going on, I don't think a few extra cones are going to make any difference.
I don't think the biggest issue is absorption with a speaker cone, although it is an issue. More problematic is a sympathetic resonance, similar to a phase delayed reflection, that can interfere with the remainder of the sound in the area.
I posted long ago about an issue I have in a listening room that has a piano in it. The piano is very old and in need of new damping felts. It likes to play along when the levels get loud. When you mute the system the piano will resonate for a second or so. Not ideal of course.
I posted long ago about an issue I have in a listening room that has a piano in it. The piano is very old and in need of new damping felts. It likes to play along when the levels get loud. When you mute the system the piano will resonate for a second or so. Not ideal of course.
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