whoaru99
Epic Member
In a lot of case, yeah, it's a matter of high power in a small package so forced cooling is necessary.
There are some pro amps though like Yamaha P2200 and some of the larger brothers that are not fan cooled.
The most aggressive sounding amplifier?
- Thread starter LordLunatic
- Start date
In a lot of case, yeah, it's a matter of high power in a small package so forced cooling is necessary.
There are some pro amps though like Yamaha P2200 and some of the larger brothers that are not fan cooled.
SoCal Sam
Lunatic Member
Understanding that one's statements are personal/subjective is a great thing, and allows for proper conversation, rather than what a lot of "audiophile" discussions I've experienced have been, which borders on what you might expect from some form of religious dogma. So I appreciate that!
Great to hear an assertion of the JBL, because I've been very curious how it holds up to current standards - its not that old, but you never know. as you yourself point out, many (myself included) dont have a lot of options in terms of speakers we're able to get, and even less when it comes to one's we can actually demo. I've owned Cerwin Vega XLS215, Dynaudio Contour 1.4, Dynaudio Audience 10 and Kef iQ30. Out of that lot the JBL seems like the best compromise of getting some of the massive sound of the Vegas, the fantastic midrange of the Dynaudio and the detailed treble of the Kef.
As for placebo/objectivity on amps, gear and aesthetics, on one hand, due to my mental-condition (not going into it too much), I'm about as objective/cold as a person can be - that being said, I'm also a designer, and I very much appreciate great looking design and aesthetics, but neither price, looks or personal stakes, have ever caused me to not hear/evaluate equipment for exactly what it is... Both a blessing and a curse, because it means I can't easily be fooled, but on the other hand I'm rarely satisfied, because I can't just settle for something because it looks nice or seems nice - it has to be perfect.
What I could do, if i got the 1310 and its was great, would simply be to potentially re-build it into a nicer looking enclosure - you can get copies of a lot of beautiful enclosure from Nagra, Krell, Aavik etc. on ebay these days. One thing I noticed about the 1310 though is that it seems to have a fan? Having another fan running in my home it something I'd rather not have - my workstations/servers already drive me nuts when they run
I don't know if mounting passive heat-sinks would be enough, since I suspect the fan is due to the constraints of the rack mounted nature of pro-equipment?
The 1310 may not be the end all be all but it is a good starting point for experiencing attack (vertical rise) and sharp sound (no rounding). And yes, it does have a fan. My 1310USA runs at room temperature and does not generate any heat that my fingers can feel. The fan may have a thermal trigger which would be a feature to look for. I never found fan noise to be objectionable or audible as most of the noise is directed rearward and is drowned out by the first 1 watt. The fan has something to do with the cool running performance but I think the overbuilt nature of pro audio means components are not stressed for maximum reliability. As an experiment, I disconnected the fan in my Crown XLS-202. It runs cool with or without the fan connected. I'm not recommending you disconnect the fan.
LordLunatic
Member
No, I would more likely just hope that heat-sinks and possibly a bigger enclosure, might enough to keep the temp low enough that is isn't triggered. I would be very surprised, at that price, if the 1310 was the end all... The question then really becomes, what the best option is within the budget then - because the 1310 can be had for roughly 300$ which is great considering it would be a bit of an experiment, but if I could have something much better, without breaking the budget, that might be interesting!
Also, does anyone have experience with wether or not it is relatively easy to move the amp into a different case? I could throw it into something like this:
whoaru99
Epic Member
Bearing in mind the pro audio amps are designed considering potential commercial duty use. Home audio use, at least in my experience, is generally a lot lower duty cycle.
I use four QSC PLX amps in my HT system (2x PLX3402, 2x PLX2402) and replaced the factory high flow fans with off the shelf low flow fans (~$10 each and 15-20 min per amp). Even with all four amps powered up but no music playing, I can't hear any fan noise more than about 1 foot or little more from the stack of four amps. I've never had any thermal shutdown nor even blowing hot air, lukewarm/slightly warm air as I'd describe it.
I am not sure I agree with that you cannot tell the difference if THD is below 0.1%. In my thread mentioned, I reduce the inductance of the speaker cable and I lowered the THD at the load end from 0.14% using Monster 12 gauge cable vs my new design that measured 0.044% at 20KHz. The sound is staggering difference with so much more attack and in your face. Everything sounds closer to me than before. It just sounds so much bigger.
It may be because of lower inductance and have better high frequency response, BUT I think there is a lot more than just better frequency response.
I think people that claim you cannot hear the difference below 0.1% is because your speaker cable add so much more THD that whatever THD your amp is, is drowned out by the speaker cable. Like even if your amp has THD of 0.001%, but the cable gives you 0.1%, your total THD is 0.1%. This is explained in the long drawn thread in this:http://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/effect-of-speaker-cable-on-thd.764633/
EDIT To OP:
I am not trying to tell you to spend big money on speaker cables. I am making cables really cheap. I show step by step how I made the cable, the cost of cable is less than $20 plus the banana connectors. If you are ready to spend over $2000, do yourself a favor, spend less than $30 dollars( include buying the banana connectors) and make yourself the cable and try it out.
I am cheap, I born cheap. I don't tell people to spend big money unless it's proven necessary.
It may be because of lower inductance and have better high frequency response, BUT I think there is a lot more than just better frequency response.
I think people that claim you cannot hear the difference below 0.1% is because your speaker cable add so much more THD that whatever THD your amp is, is drowned out by the speaker cable. Like even if your amp has THD of 0.001%, but the cable gives you 0.1%, your total THD is 0.1%. This is explained in the long drawn thread in this:http://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/effect-of-speaker-cable-on-thd.764633/
EDIT To OP:
I am not trying to tell you to spend big money on speaker cables. I am making cables really cheap. I show step by step how I made the cable, the cost of cable is less than $20 plus the banana connectors. If you are ready to spend over $2000, do yourself a favor, spend less than $30 dollars( include buying the banana connectors) and make yourself the cable and try it out.
I am cheap, I born cheap. I don't tell people to spend big money unless it's proven necessary.
Last edited:
SoCal Sam
Lunatic Member
No, I would more likely just hope that heat-sinks and possibly a bigger enclosure, might enough to keep the temp low enough that is isn't triggered. I would be very surprised, at that price, if the 1310 was the end all... The question then really becomes, what the best option is within the budget then - because the 1310 can be had for roughly 300$ which is great considering it would be a bit of an experiment, but if I could have something much better, without breaking the budget, that might be interesting!
Also, does anyone have experience with wether or not it is relatively easy to move the amp into a different case? I could throw it into something like this:
The biggest problem I see would be attaching the output transistors to the heat sink and plumbing the wiring. IIRC, there are eight pairs per channel. I think your ear is pretty good as is. 1310 suggestion is a training aid so when you audition something fancy, you know what to listen for. I think you have the measure of audio salesmen and can resist them.
Have a look at the Yamaha PC5002M which is the pro version of the awesome 101M. The owners manual is online and shows wave form results. Look for square wave reproduction, which is perfect. IMO, the PC5002M is an excellent example of form following function. It is a tank and is supremely powerful.
I know quite a few pro amp are class D and the like, I don't think class D can compare to the real hifi amps like Krell, Bryston, Threshold and the like. Class D is a good way to get good enough sound for cheap price, because they save on the heatsink and the huge transformer and big caps by using modulation technique where you transform the audio signal into RF where it is more efficient, then demodulate back to audio frequency. But through this process, something will get lost along the way.
The budget OP willing to pay is way beyond these, he should stay with the true hifi amp.
LordLunatic
Member
Hah, on a sidenote, I just saw that the case I linked weighs about 17kg... That explains a lot of why many of the big krells and pass amps a so enormously heavy!
FootFungus
Super Member
Its actually the transformers that tend to be the largest weight component in the amps. The large Krells can have around 40kg or more just in transformers.
LordLunatic
Member
That one does look very intriguing - sadly the only ones I can find on sale are in the US.
LordLunatic
Member
I know, its just taking it that bit further - I do realize there is some sense in the lunacy
LordLunatic
Member
The NAD M22, Classé and Lyngdorf are all class D and seem to get on quite well - but I do have a soft-spot for big stonking monoblocks and the like. But in the end performance comes first, and I've found it is very hard to find something that meets my standards... at least within my budget so far - but I suspect that in part it is because my taste in sound is in the minority. At least it often feels that way; this forum and this thread, is just about the best, most open minded and least prejudicial conversation I've had about hifi in a long time! So massive kudos for that, and thanks for taking the time!
For you budget and if you are willing to buy used, you can get to the tip top amps. Class D is a cheap way to get good amps, but the tip top are still the old fashion class A or at least the high bias class AB amp with big region of class A.
You really should consider making the speaker cable to try it out. As I said in the last post, I made my own and my thread has picture how I make it. It's under $30 total and result is staggering. I am totally surprise myself. If I am wrong, you waste $30. If I am right, you'll be very happy.
I have measurement to back up my claim in my thread.
You really should consider making the speaker cable to try it out. As I said in the last post, I made my own and my thread has picture how I make it. It's under $30 total and result is staggering. I am totally surprise myself. If I am wrong, you waste $30. If I am right, you'll be very happy.
I have measurement to back up my claim in my thread.
LordLunatic
Member
I make cables for a living, so I know pretty well what cables can and can't do... And also how poor a state the speaker cable market is in, considering the conductance possible with current metallurgy, which is well beyond even the Nordost Odin cables, making me pretty confused why it is as expensive as it is, beyond being very pretty, cool looking and having a good name... Oh, I guess I know exactly why its that expensive
As far as amps go, I'm not entirely into the pro-amp idea with both legs yet - I'm currently looking at the options, and the reviews, as I've already been through all the conventional hifi amps available to me in my area (listed earlier) and didn't find anything conclusive, other than that the Thule IA350B was a solid bet, but I wanted to see if I could find something more interesting before taking the sensible route... As I said, I'm a sucker for big monoblocks, industrial design and vu-meters, so if I can have something at a similar price that is as good or better, that also looks great, then I'd be chuffed!
If you are expert in cable, please join in my thread. We are kind of finding out problems and what causing distortion. You can help us a lot. I am doing a lot of measurement and coming up with different cheap ways to build my cables. I am happy with the result, but I am still trying to lower the capacitance.I make cables for a living, so I know pretty well what cables can and can't do... And also how poor a state the speaker cable market is in, considering the conductance possible with current metallurgy, which is well beyond even the Nordost Odin cables, making me pretty confused why it is as expensive as it is, beyond being very pretty, cool looking and having a good name... Oh, I guess I know exactly why its that expensive
As far as amps go, I'm not entirely into the pro-amp idea with both legs yet - I'm currently looking at the options, and the reviews, as I've already been through all the conventional hifi amps available to me in my area (listed earlier) and didn't find anything conclusive, other than that the Thule IA350B was a solid bet, but I wanted to see if I could find something more interesting before taking the sensible route... As I said, I'm a sucker for big monoblocks, industrial design and vu-meters, so if I can have something at a similar price that is as good or better, that also looks great, then I'd be chuffed!
I think monobloc is the way to go, you put it next to the speaker and use short cable to the speaker. It's not critical to make the preamp RCA cable long. For you budget, you can get the best amp used, I would say with hifi amps.
LordLunatic
Member
A pair of Vincent SP998 just popped up near me... Those look like they might fit the bill! Massive monos, with 50w class a and 300w AB into 8ohm, 600w into 4ohm. And they handily go down to 10hz!
I'm very wary of cable discussions, because usually it just ends in a bunch of pseudoscience applied in a nonsensical manner, and I just end up angering someone, because unless something makes sound scientific sense to me, or I can very clearly hear it, I'm not buying into it... I'm sure you're doing it in a sensible manner, I've just seen one too many people try to convince me that acoustically dampening a cable makes sense...
Last edited:
FootFungus
Super Member
The doubling down into 4 ohms is a positive sign.
If you look in the thread, everything is result driven, all are based on FFT reading. Just scan through the thread and you'll see. We don't argue about the sound, it's all measurement. It's only the last one page I actually put the cable in and I found it's a lot more in your face, more attacks. That's the result on my system. But I mainly work on how to lower THD and lowering capacitance. All measurements, no opinion.
There are only a few people that join in the thread as we never talk about how this cable sounds. It's all about measuring, postulating, proofing, correcting and experimenting again. You might find it interesting.
SoCal Sam
Lunatic Member
Yup, doubling down into 4 Ohm is a good sign. Doubling down again into 2 Ohm is a great sign.
Cables can change the sound to suit ones subjective preference. Cables are a tuning option. Lamp cord is just as good as 100 buck per meter cable as all subjective preference choices are valid. The validation is comparison listening to the cable choices to determine personal preference. I will never be a boutique audio salesman.
whoaru99
Epic Member
I do have a few Class D amps, but none of those I mentioned are Class D amps.
Like I said, I currently OWN and USE both "real hifi" (your words, not mine) amps and several pro amps. I am completely familar with their sound in comparison and wouldn't have them if I thought they sounded like crap. I have this direct experience. Many do not and offer only speculations and heresay.
