The VPI Traveler Has No Anti-Skating - Whats Your Opinion?

[Russellc]

It's simply resolved as a question. I notice, looking straight on with the cart during play, regardless of album beginning, middle or end, most recommended anti skate levels, generally speaking, cause the cantilever to be bending in reaction. I guess some dont think this damaging cantilever or album, and they would be dead wrong.

If you are using the "Hifi test record" to set it, you are way overboard. A little anti skate goes a long way. But what do I know? I've only been in this for 45+ years.

Russellc

 

[wintersdawn]

With no anti-skate, how about extra wear to the inner groove wall due to the pull towards the spindle?

 

[KentTeffeteller]

I've got the same arm and I haven't missed anti-skate.

Same feelings with my ATP 16-T tonearm.

 

[marcmorin]

With no anti-skate, how about extra wear to the inner groove wall due to the pull towards the spindle?

does it cause inner groove wear? would that be akin to one stylus tracking at 1.25 gr vs one tracking at 2 gr? it would be simply added load not unlike the added load of two different tracking weights. Most of the styli I observe for folks that show wear, the vast majority of the wear indicates that the load causing the wear was to the outer radius. either binding horizontal bearings, or excessive antiskate added.

 

[wintersdawn]

I do not know if it causes inner groove wear, just posed the question. With the correct/effective amount of anti-skate the stylus should sit in the groove without excessive force being applied either toward the spindle or the opposite. As far as I know the clockwise motion of the turntable draws the tonearm towards the spindle and so without anti-skate applied this 'may' cause groove wear on the groove wall that is facing the spindle.

 

[marcmorin]

I do not know if it causes inner groove wear, just posed the question. With the correct/effective amount of anti-skate the stylus should sit in the groove without excessive force being applied either toward the spindle or the opposite. As far as I know the clockwise motion of the turntable draws the tonearm towards the spindle and so without anti-skate applied this 'may' cause groove wear on the groove wall that is facing the spindle.

the vast majority of wear to a groove wall is from impact. (forget dirt/debris for a moment) ie the stylus breaking contact with the vinyl, and then crashing back into it. if it's loaded higher to the inside wall, the chance of it breaking contact with the vinyl is reduced. which is why if the skating force is high, the distortions are coming from the outer groove wall as the diamond looses contact with it.

 

[wintersdawn]

the vast majority of wear to a groove wall is from impact. (forget dirt/debris for a moment) ie the stylus breaking contact with the vinyl, and then crashing back into it. if it's loaded higher to the inside wall, the chance of it breaking contact with the vinyl is reduced. which is why if the skating force is high, the distortions are coming from the outer groove wall as the diamond looses contact with it.

Yes but I am not talking about distortion caused from less contact with the outer wall but too much contact with the inner wall. While too much contact with the inner wall won't cause the stylus to lose contact (which is good) too much may still cause excessive wear to the inner groove wall if no anti-skate is applied.

 

[bobins08]

You just run VTF toward the upper end of recommended range to ensure the stylus stays in contact with the outer groove wall due to the resultant unequal effective wall-to-wall TF due to the skating force.

I have an AR XB with Marc Morin arm mods. Similar to vpi, there is no anti skate adjust other than dressing tone arm wires. The AR tracks better than my SME 3009 series II arm which had uses anti skate. It tracks better than my Technics SL 1600 mk II and any of the other Japanese 70's tables I have used that have anti skate.

I totally agree with Pio, I have learned over the past year of using the AR that tracking on the heavy side of the cartridge range is best. When doing this I have no problem with channel balance, sibilance, or tracking.

 

[wintersdawn]

So maybe sufficient VTF cancels out the need for anti-skating?

 

[bberkom]

VTF and antiskating definitely affect one another. As I raise VTF, I typically need less antiskate. You hear the rule of thumb to just set the antiskate to the same number as the VTF, but I haven't found that to be effective. I use a smooth blank record side to set antiskate on my tables. Set the needle down and adjust until the arm stays steady in the middle. I then observe the cantilever when playing some records and see if it's being pulled/leaning in either direction, but usually it's pretty perpendicular to the record at that point. Then I sit back and listen for mistracking, etc. Typically I use much less antiskate than I used to, and with some carts/arms, I use none.

 

[Pio1980]

So maybe sufficient VTF cancels out the need for anti-skating?

Yes and no, it does override asymmetrical tracking force on the groove walls to maintain tracing contact, which nonetheless still inevitably results in asymmetrical stylus tip attrition. Antiskate does approximately balance the wall tracking force.

 

[wintersdawn]

I've used a blank record to set anti-skate but wonder if this is suitable as when playing a normal record it is not blank but has grooves etc.

 

[wintersdawn]

Yes and no, it does override asymmetrical tracking force on the groove walls to maintain tracing contact, which nonetheless still inevitably results in asymmetrical stylus tip attrition. Antiskate does approximately balance the wall tracking force.

So would sufficient VTF cancel out the pull against the inner groove wall if no anti-skate is used?

 

[Pio1980]

Not really, but it does show how it is used to counter skating effect.

 

[bberkom]

I've used a blank record to set anti-skate but wonder if this is suitable as when playing a normal record it is not blank but has grooves etc.

I've read people argue that point before since the groove is part of what pulls the arm towards the center as the record spins. In experience, I've found it's a good way to get in the ballpark and adjust visually and by listening from there.

 

[Poinzy]

In essence the VPI Web site says that the skating force on the arm towards the center varies. Plus the 10" tone arm on the Traveler minimizes the effect of skating due to its length.

It sounds like VPI believes that anti-skating is unnecessary.

What's YOUR opinion on all this?

10 inches isn't terribly long. 16 inches would be another matter. Anti-skating helps me control the behavior the the tonearm while cuing.

 

[wintersdawn]

10 inches isn't terribly long. 16 inches would be another matter. Anti-skating helps me control the behavior the the tonearm while cuing.

I have noticed when I lower the tonearm onto the dead wax at the start of a LP that it sometimes moves back before moving forward to play the record, could this indicate too much anti-skate? I haven't noticed any problems sound-wise & the anti-skate is set the same as the VTF.

 

[Pio1980]

The skating force varies, depending on angle of tangency error at point of contact which varies, and depending on tracking force.

 

[AvFan]

No antiskate on my Audio Technica ATP12T tonearm.

I've got the same arm and I haven't missed anti-skate.

In the nearly 5 years since my original post I've come to a different conclusion about the lack of anti skate on my ATP-12T. Whether it was anti skate or cartridge matching or a combination of factors I couldn't get the sound right so I replaced the ATP-12T it with a Jelco SA-750E and got better sound. The anti skate adjustment on the Jelco applies a constant force versus the changing skating force and I had to experiment to find the best setting. It turns out very little anti skate, 0.5 as indicated on the dial, works best with the cartridges I've used.

 

[nj pheonix]

,,,,
Interesting reading
While I've been spinning vinyl for 40 some odd years , I never gave much thought to it past the common wisdom of keeping the record clean and setting TF and ant- skating as the cart and TT manufacturer recommended. It seemed to work well. I know this group takes it much further than that