MurrayLives
Born to lose, live to win
Don't have it on my Classic, and don't miss it.
The VPI Traveler Has No Anti-Skating - Whats Your Opinion?
- Thread starter Jim Creek
- Start date
twiiii
Lunatic Member
I have seen hundreds of TT's tested using Sound technology equipment and test records from Shure, Ortofon, etc. You definitly need anti skating . But the best way is to use a linear tracking tone arm. You won't believe the difference in the tracking ability of any cartridge when installed in a linear arm.
Put your stylus under a good stylus microscope after maybe half its life without anti-skate. If you like what you see, carry on. Most won't. The mono-filament over a rod method can have higher than expected friction and hysteresis. Any wax or dry lube usually makes it worse. A small low friction bushing or switch to cotton thread sometimes improves it.
Interesting article on the topic:
www.audiomods.co.uk/papers/kogen_skatingforce.PDF
My personal practice with a Rega RP3 and Shure M97xE is to track at 1.35 grams (at least according to my Shure gauge, which only claims accuracy to within 0.1 grams) and keep anti skate to its minimum setting (on the Rega, it's never truly and completely off). After some experimentation, those settings sound best to me.
www.audiomods.co.uk/papers/kogen_skatingforce.PDF
My personal practice with a Rega RP3 and Shure M97xE is to track at 1.35 grams (at least according to my Shure gauge, which only claims accuracy to within 0.1 grams) and keep anti skate to its minimum setting (on the Rega, it's never truly and completely off). After some experimentation, those settings sound best to me.
wintersdawn
Active Member
So maybe, even though we can get good sound with low or no anti-skate, the stylus is being worn unevenly by the absence of anti-skate?
gusten
Addicted Member
For a pivoted arm the normal forces at inner groove walls will be considerably higher than on outer groove walls, if not using AS. Some they that one can use a higher VTF to compensate for not using AS, this will naturally cause even higher forces at inner groove wall.
As long as there is no mistracking one might not hear any difference easily, if using AS or not, at least not in needle´s early life.
As long as there is no mistracking one might not hear any difference easily, if using AS or not, at least not in needle´s early life.
It would certainly make sense that if there is more pressure on one side of the stylus than the other, the side with higher pressure would wear faster. Surprising to me was that the Kogen study found that this did not always occur; however, 9 of the 14 styli undergoing their stylus life test without anti skate proved to wear appreciably faster on the side toward the inner groove wall. Imperfect as anti skate devices are, all six styli using anti-skate in the life test showed even wear.
tubewade
Super Member
This is a most important consideration, at least in my experience. Objectively we can understand what skating forces do, and why we need a compensation force to partially offset. But objectively, one could find the sound is not much different either way. As Marc stated in post #24, most anti-skate systems can be seen by stylus inspection to have overcompensated which just as bad or maybe worse than under-compensating. I'll concur with his findings as I've seen the same thing, and also have seen styli worn on the inside when used on decks that have no skating compensation. One should certainly use some anti-skate compensation, but probably rather a lot less than you would think. And there can be enough in the twist of the wires. I'd rather, if I have some error, have a bit too little than a bit too much.
tubewade
Super Member
If the stylus wear was even it showed that the AS force was set correctly. Excellent! Many times I've found (by stylus wear examination) that going by the numbers on the dial results in too much. I don't trust that anymore.
wintersdawn
Active Member
If sound is largely unaffected by the presence or absence of anti-skate then it really is by chance if we get it right according to the anti-skate dial, with some dials being more accurate than others.
tubewade
Super Member
I agree. Dials are not correct, and the final determination is whether the stylus is evenly worn at the end of its life.
gusten
Addicted Member
One thing is that AS helps in tracking hot passages more cleanly, as can be seen in tracking tests.
tubewade
Super Member
Here is an image of a diamond stylus that I replaced on a turntable that had no anti-skate. I wouldn't recommend letting your stylus go this long, but it is a useful example for us in the study of forces at play. The left side flat is toward the label, the other is, of course, toward the outside. This was initially a spherical stylus. Magnification is 300x.
Russellc
Addicted Member
If you are responding to me, reread my post. I said nothing about no anti skate. If meant for someone else never mind!
Russellc
Aerobat
Class A all the way
Interesting that the paper says there's less skating force with a wet record. That's why Thorens arms have wet and dry antiskate settings.
In my own experience with a HK T-55C and the Hi-Fi News test record, a large amount of antiskate was required to get the stylus to track cleanly on both channels.
In my own experience with a HK T-55C and the Hi-Fi News test record, a large amount of antiskate was required to get the stylus to track cleanly on both channels.
Russellc
Addicted Member
Russellc
Addicted Member
bobins08
Celebrating Life
Great thread and discussion.
We seem to be focused on stylus wear. A stylus WILL wear out. I thought the function of the anti skate was to prevent record wear/ damage, and to improve sound quality?
I find anti skate hard to set because on my tables I don't hear the skating problem. On tables that have it I use a minimum amount.
We seem to be focused on stylus wear. A stylus WILL wear out. I thought the function of the anti skate was to prevent record wear/ damage, and to improve sound quality?
I find anti skate hard to set because on my tables I don't hear the skating problem. On tables that have it I use a minimum amount.
