They say a picture paints a thousand words.

[theophile]

I've started the ball rolling.
Please post all discussion of ground borne vibration here:

http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?p=8664150#post8664150

 

[sqlsavior]

So are the ball-in-cups for low-Hz horizontal vibrations, and the Magix for vertical ones, or do they do both? Do you feel that your system as a whole is "more than the sum of its parts", or are all the layers contributing to the result in roughly similar proportions?

What kind of vibrations are you up against in your location?

I'm wondering if my lesser attempt, in an adjacent room, is sufficient in my relatively low traffic (35 mph rural two-lane about 1/3 mile away, empty after 9:00 PM) location...

http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=604749

Also wondering if the isolation table in the CEPro article would do the same as you have achieved on you own with all your effort. "Tuning" one of those tables is also necessary for good results, I believe.

Thanks for the pictures.

 

[Mark B]

:ntwrthy:


Thanks for posting this theo.

 

[theophile]

So are the ball-in-cups for low-Hz horizontal vibrations, and the Magix for vertical ones, or do they do both? Do you feel that your system as a whole is "more than the sum of its parts", or are all the layers contributing to the result in roughly similar proportions?

What kind of vibrations are you up against in your location?

I'm wondering if my lesser attempt, in an adjacent room, is sufficient in my relatively low traffic (35 mph rural two-lane about 1/3 mile away, empty after 9:00 PM) location...

http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=604749

Also wondering if the isolation table in the CEPro article would do the same as you have achieved on you own with all your effort. "Tuning" one of those tables is also necessary for good results, I believe.

Thanks for the pictures.

Balls and cups for horizontal. Magix for vertical. Correct.

This support sits upon a tiled concrete slab floor. I live on a quiet street, but the are major roads not far away.

With regard to the MinusK platform, I have seen numerous testimonies from owners of them that they need to be loaded near to their stated maximum payload in order to obtain the best effect. I also saw one owner say that the COG of the component needed to be positioned centrally upon the top plate for the same reason. All of which confirms my own findings.

 

[theophile]

:ntwrthy:


Thanks for posting this theo.

Two factors made it possible:

First, I dropped and irreparably broke my mobile phone about two weeks ago and was thus forced to buy a new one. The new one had a camera.

Secondly I decided to re-level the 75Kg manufactured stone slab underneath the Magix. The foundation upon which all this rests. Whilst doing so I thought "This is a good time to take my first photos with the new mobile phone". :yes:

Because this support is quite different to any other out there, where I have described it before in words I doubted that anyone could make sense of what I was describing. Another thing, people expressed doubt when I said that I was using 21 Clearaudio Magix. Well go back to the initial photos and count them. 21 just like I said. This give me the ability to use the granite slab and give some leeway with regard to tuning the load with additional weight. I'd probably need an additional 30 lb to bottom out the 21 Magix.

None of this is simple and it has truly taken me years to get to grips with what is happening with this arrangement.

I used to try all sorts of configurations of Magix(without the cups and balls) under the GT. None was really satisfactory or gave superb results. The I had my Eureka moment where it dawned upon me that the Magix needed to be equidistant from the COG of the GT. That was a breakthrough realisation. I had never seen anyone anywhere using Magix like that. That is how they need to be used in order that they are all isolating at the exact same frequency. That is the crucial principle that I had been overlooking. I also suspect that is why no-one anywhere had been getting good results with the Magix

I figured out from the diameter of the individual Magix that I needed a circular arrangement with spaces in between each of the 21 to be in the vicinity of 850mm. Hence getting the manufactured stone foundation cut to 850mm square and the 6mm thick perspex circle beneath the 21 Magix cut to 850mm. The magix sit on that 6mm thick 850mm diameter circle with their outer circumference touching the edge on the circle. I found an object which allows me to space all of the Magix exactly the same distance apart from each other. Thus they all sit exactly equally from the center of the 6mm thick 850mm diameter perspex circle. That meant that all I had to do was have the 15mm thick circular perspex plate that the granite slab sits upon placed so that its circumference is just about the outer circumference of the 21 Magix and the centers of the 15mm thick perspex circle which carries the granite slab and the Magix are in vertical alignment.

Then center the granite slab on the perspex circle atop the Magix and you are halfway there.

Placing the GT 2000 on the three cups and balls is a bitch. The best way to lift the GT 2000 is with a hand on each side, and that is exactly where one of the cups is. I have figured out a way to place it on bricks, then slide the cups under and take the bricks away. Getting each of the balls to settle at the bottom of the cup properly(ie not getting any of the balls 'trapped' on the uphills) takes a bit of doing. The turntable doesn't sit still on the other two balls while you are trying to optimise them one at a time, The whole shebang is tricky to say the least. The powercord, the outboard supply cord and the phono leads all affect to roll of the GT on the cups and balls. So there's another thing to be mindful of.

Once you've done your best to get that optimised, tested by giving the GT a nudge and watching the smoothness of the 'roll' of the GT on the three cups and balls in each direction, one now uses music to determine the optimum load to tune the support.

I need to take a beak from typing and listen to music. :thmbsp:

 

[theophile]

The pay off for the tear-down and reassemble which prompted this thread and the photos is that I'm getting better sound quality out of this support than I ever have. I really don't know the limitations of this support because I'm finding with each iteration of it and each more-disciplined fine tune of it that it is getting better and better.

It really sounds incredible. What I am hearing is the potential of the GT 2000 with the impediments that limit its capability stripped away. What an amazing Source component it is. :yes:

I'll emphasise again that I can make this all sound quite ordinary(compared to where it could be) by de-tuning the support. It is a filter and the filter needs to be adjusted. Sub-optimum adjustment equals sub-optimum sound. Many would hear what I regard as "sub-optimum" and say that it sounds great. Well when you've heard what this support can do, it is difficult to settle for sub-optimum.

The three records I just listened to were Emerson Lake and Palmer's eponymous first album, Deep Purple Machine Head(Japanese pressing) and one of the Bach Cantata's(BWV 11) from the Telefunken Das Alte Werk complete cantata set. There's some church organ on the ELP album which really tipped me off that this current tuning of the support had taken the sound into a new realm. Previously you could tell that it was recorded in a church. It had that unmistakeable sound. Now you could hear the acoustics of the building and the power of the organ was ferocious(that is what this support does). The Deep Purple album was a delight. Jon Lord's Hammond B-3 was portrayed in all of it's overdubbed splendor. The Bach Cantanta has sounded good before, but this time it was like all of the voices were way more focused and there were details of flutes and recorders which were being played simultaneously with the organ accompaniment that I was never able to distinguish apart from the organ pipes. Now these woodwinds were not only distinguishable but were very natural sounding and distinctly placed well in front of the organ in their own little grouping.

This is how the tuning affects the sound. Done properly it is like a 'reality' control. Tune it a little 'this way' and it sounds closer to realistic, tune it a little 'that way' and the illusion recedes back to sounding less realistic. That's why I said that I use recordings to tune the support. The most natural recordings(99% being Classical) are the best to use because there is no studio trickery and the sound was recorded simply miked in an acoustic space, live with multiple singers, orchestra and organ accompaniment and that unmistakeable church acoustic. It makes it easy to zero in on whether your efforts are a step forward, marking time or a step backward.

When dialed in this way the Rock and Jazz LPs all sound at their best as well. :thmbsp:

 

[theophile]

I dearly, dearly love the sound of the GT 2000 on this support. This is HD vinyl sound. The Average Joe who has never heard great LP playback would be stunned and the dedicated turntable enthusiast would also be a jibbering mess.

I've clearly achieved something here.

The analogy I've just considered is the cleaning of the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel completed in 1989. Prior to the cleaning it was an astonishing work of art. After the restoration process a wealth of hitherto unnoticeable detail and colour was revealed. Nothing was added to the paintings, instead a layer of concealing muck was removed. This is the effect that this isolation has when correctly leveled, concentrically stacked, the balls and cups have been optimised for better rolling freedom and the fine tuning weight is optimised for placement and load.

The ironic thing is that regard my efforts so far as rough approximations of what could ultimately be done with these concepts and that there could easily be a further huge leap forward in the capability of these basic concepts above and beyond what I have managed to accomplish with my present support. Consider this:

I use ceramic(porcelain) incense burners as cup and ball towers. It is a rough diy substitution of another item which is in no way correct for the purpose for which I'm using them. I've already indicated earlier in this thread that I'd like to experiment with the Final Lab Daruma San cups. There is a reason why I like these cups over and beyond what I see with the Symposium Rollerballs; the Daruma San cups have a very shallow cup. This means that the frequency if the roll oscillation is slower(ie at a lower frequency) than the Symposium Rollerball cups. Intuitively I feel that this is the way to go. Ultimately I'd like to have a set of metal towers machined that could accept the Darumas into their top and see how that affects the sound of this isolation concept.

There may well be better materials to use between the Magix and the cup and ball towers. I've considered Panzerholz(Delignit) for the 850mm circle. The other idea that I have been mulling over for the 850 mm circle is carbon fiber skins over a kevlar honeycomb core, which would marry lightness and extreme stiffness.

I'd also love to experiment with re-plinthing a Yamaha GT 2000's motor and electronics in order to further optimise the effects.

I regard my current efforts as a rough diy validation of the principles that I've applied here. I really envisage that an all out no-holds-barred high tech application of the same principle could take the results that I am deliriously happy with at this point to a level that I cannot conceive of and that is exciting to consider I promise you.

Now that I understand the underlying principles which I feel make this whole experiment work, I feel that it will be utilisation of advanced materials and implementation of better purpose made elements that will enable the principles to yield the fullest extent of the effects that could be achieved.

 

[theophile]

This is a reply I gave on another thread where a member is considering buying mag-lev footers:

Mag-lev doesn't give of it's best unless each footer is isolating at the exact same frequency and the load optimised in order for the isolation to be at the correct frequency. Each footer needs to be equidistant from the other and equidistant from the COG of the component and if the component is even slightly too heavy or too light you won't be getting anywhere near the results I'm getting.

That's why I said in my thread that the results I'm getting aren't due to using mag-lev in conjunction with cups and balls. The spectacular results I am getting are due to the necessary fastidiousness I realise must be applied in order to attain that level of result from this method. That is why I emphasise in my thread that I can undo the result. The mag-lev footers are still there. The cups and balls are still there. The tricky part is that the load needs to be optimised and in order to do that you have to add or subtract weight. One can't subtract weight from the component which is why I went for a much greater number of Magix than was necessary for my needs. Some leeway to experiment with the tuning range. Also I have the advantage of an area underneath my turntable so that the added weight can be centered. Remember that the added or subtracted weight still needs to coincide with the COG. With a turntable that generally is around the platter somewhere. So the problem becomes: if you don't have room underneath the turntable to center the tuning weight, there is no place atop the turntable to do the centering.

Getting the best, the full effective results out of mag lev is not just a matter of putting a component on top of them. If you want a solution that fits that bill, it would be better to consider another method.

 

[theophile]

Notice the last sentence said full effective results. Just using mag-lev without due consideration will give results. Some may be quite happy with those not quite full effective results. I was. It was those not so full effective results that I was getting for years that pushed me to attempt to figure out ways to further optimise, further extend the effectiveness. So I'm not trying to criticise anyone who is using mag-lev without optimisation and is happy with the result.

GOD bless 'em. :thmbsp:

The motivation for this thread is to provide anyone who wishes to go down this path with an understanding of the principles required to yield incredible results from mag-lev. It can be done, but not without understanding what needs to be done and what to avoid.

From analysing the problem that the poster on the other thread would face, I can see that I was lucky to implement a cup and ball method which incorporated a height element(ie) which raised the cup and ball method clear of the granite slab. This enables me to experiment with added weight in proximity to the COG of the set-up. Thus retaining the practice of following the principles of my methodology. It was serendipitous. I can see in hindsight that lifting the turntable clear of the granite slab, or simply the tier upon the Magix, is necessary to provide a space where experimentation with added load/optimised load can take place proximal to the COG.

Geez I wish that mag-lev was easier to optimise. It is fussy and it takes understanding, logical application, lots of experimentation and a lot of time.

The following is ultra-crucial:

Every time I experiment with the optimum load, subtracting weight/adding weight, I have to painstakingly move that load around to get the COG spot on target and I MEAN SPOT ON TARGET. I have to hit the bull's eye each time or I lose the great results I have been getting. It is that fussy. The reason I bother is that I've heard the results that I get when I bother to get it right. It's truly addictive. To have you albums not just sound great but virtually come to life is a huge buzz and the reason why I've stuck with this discipline and talked about it for so long.

The Yamaha GT 2000 needs to be taken into consideration when I discuss the results I'm getting. Mag-lev cannot transform any turntable into something it isn't. OK? The rest of the system as listed below also is able to take what mag-lev does to the GT 2000 and not stifle it. That is why I've said that if you have a great turntable in a great system it might be worth your while to consider this method. Don't expect miracles with this method, but remember that optimising the Source component lifts the level of a great system to new heights.

 

[spartanmanor]

I know this is an older thread but I just stumbled upon it.

I will never reach this level of perfection in my system but love to read about others who do. What I will do is incorporate ideas from this practice into mine. Thanks so much for posting this.

 

[theophile]

I know this is an older thread but I just stumbled upon it.

I will never reach this level of perfection in my system but love to read about others who do. What I will do is incorporate ideas from this practice into mine. Thanks so much for posting this.

Spartan,

This method is as far from an "Off The Rack" as one could imagine. I'm too far down the rabbit-hole to turn back and I really don't know that I'd do it this way again. I'd probably buy a MinusK and optimise that. But anyone planning on using this method of mag-lev especially needs to consider what I've written here. It is not easy. It takes perseverance and the knowledge of how to eke the best out of this method.

This method works and it works spectacularly in my experience, but without the effort to exactly optimise and fine tune one may as well not bother. All of the major gains come via the fine tuning, not the mere presence of mag-lev.

An illustration of this would be a supercar with user-selectable suspension(ie Sport mode, Everyday mode, ect). The same suspension gear, but change a few things here and there and it behaves like a different suspension system. Same thing with this method. The sound/effectiveness of the isolation changes with variation of the load and further optimisation. I actually doubt the full effectiveness of 'Off The Shelf' isolation solutions which are not tailored to the individual component. They might alleviate some extent of the problem but I can't see how the one fixed/set solution becomes the panacea for everything. It doesn't make sense to me at all.

 

[theophile]

Update.

 

[theophile]

Some explanation.

If you compare the above photos to the photos I posted in the first post in this thread you will see that there have been big changes in the support.

Let's start from the bottom up:

The granite slab is gone. This was an integral element of the support from the inception of the circular arrangement for the Clearaudio Magix. I wanted to see whether a lower load atop the Magix would perform better. It does.

The ceramic incense burners are also gone. They were only ever an experiment to gauge the validity of combining vertical and horizontal isolation of these two different types. I bought 3 cups and balls from Ingress Engineering. The improvement in ease lack of friction and smoothness with these precision machined and polished cups when compared to the incense burners is night and day. I now get a beautiful fluid movement of the turntable when I nudge it.

So, the support though looking similar to the previous photos is markedly different in practice.

I'm still going to tinker with this. Quite a lot actually. I am enthused by what I hear. Very much so. I'd like to re-plinth the GT 2000. I want to get the platter and motor placed in the centre of gravity of the plinth. That way I could experiment with clamps and mats or such without the COG being out. I'd also like to be able to fit more than one (Non Yamaha)arm.

I am further impressed by how the GT 2000 is still not left behind by these improvements. It is a true sleeper that keeps its best only for those who experiment. I dare say that all non suspended TOTL turntables would similarly benefit.

 

[BilboBaggins]

This is true indeed. I work at a large scientific laboratory and people worry permanently about this type of vibrations. They even consider those arising in a highway distant 200 m from the lab.

Theo, thank you for creating this thread and updating it. I hadn’t seen it before and find it fascinating! I can totally see this being beneficial. I’ve lived with a similar problem that I notice every day. I live near a busy residential street and I’ve noticed how my Afghan carpet literally moves daily. It drives me nuts because the carpets edges bunch up as the carpet move over the wall to wall carpeting it’s laid out on. My only explanation for this phenomenon is that vibration causes the fibers in the carpet under the afghan to vibrate probably in the direction of the pile. If it is so visible to me because of it, it is clearly going to have an impact to sound reproduction from a turntable, provided you have sufficient resolution like you do to hear that difference. I don’t think I do yet, but maybe because I’ve never done isolation to this degree.

I did look up “D53*H53”, and now it appears to be only available on eBay. I had previously investigated a vibration isolation method using magnetic shocks, but the cost of them were way out of my budget.

 

[theophile]

Theo, thank you for creating this thread and updating it. I hadn’t seen it before and find it fascinating! I can totally see this being beneficial. I’ve lived with a similar problem that I notice every day. I live near a busy residential street and I’ve noticed how my Afghan carpet literally moves daily. It drives me nuts because the carpets edges bunch up as the carpet move over the wall to wall carpeting it’s laid out on. My only explanation for this phenomenon is that vibration causes the fibers in the carpet under the afghan to vibrate probably in the direction of the pile. If it is so visible to me because of it, it is clearly going to have an impact to sound reproduction from a turntable, provided you have sufficient resolution like you do to hear that difference. I don’t think I do yet, but maybe because I’ve never done isolation to this degree.

I did look up “D53*H53”, and now it appears to be only available on eBay. I had previously investigated a vibration isolation method using magnetic shocks, but the cost of them were way out of my budget.

Either that or your house is haunted by a ghost with a rug-moving predilection.

 

[marcmorin]

Either that or your house is haunted by a ghost with a rug-moving predilection.

Bored car key gnomes..........no such thing as ghosts..........

 

[theophile]

I wish that I had a single Clearaudio Magix that I could show you all via a Youtube video or the like. When the central piston of a Magix is fully extended, with zero load on it, the central piston spins freely around its central vertical axis. There is friction but it is slight and hardly impedes the rotation of the piston. With finger compression, the piston is springy indeed at the lighter end of the load range. These low load presses always have some resistance to the force of the finger press but if the press is light the resistence is low and the spring back is similarly not pushing back strongly. So using the finger test again pressing down on the piston gives progressively increasing resistence which is gradually introduced at first. Initially there is little resistance. As one's fingers press further resistance progressively increases then exponentially the resistance confronts the force applied by one's hand.

The number one reason that I went with soo many Clearaudio Magix is that I wanted to have plenty of leeway with which to experiment with either heavy loads on the Magix or light loads on the Magix. If heavy is what is called for, I can add weight to provide for that. However if light loads upon the Magix are what is really called for, it is necessary to have sufficient number of Magix to further distribute and lighten the load by sharing with more Magix.

I'd like to see to some degree, okay to a large degree, just how further lightening of the load effects the isolation. I have mentioned replacing the 850 mm diameter methyl methacrylate circle for something which would do the same job but which would weigh less. I was thinking of a sandwich material which was very light, very rigid and not prone to propagating acoustic resonance. What I have in mind is a Kevlar honeycomb with Carbon Fiber skins top and bottom. The Kevlar sandwiched inbetween the Carbon Fiber. Not only would that be interesting, I'd love to see how the GT 2000 motor responds to being mounted on a plinth which was lighter, rigid and composed of a material with greater self damping than the stock plinth. It just occured to me that 3D printing could devise some interesting lightweight plinths for the GT 2000. I really feel that this motor was only partially served by the rest of the GT 2000. Served well enough via the stock set up to not render the virtue of the motor inaccessible but still, compromised sufficiently that careful substitution of materials and isolation enable the full realisation of the motor's potential.

I'd hate to come this far and wonder what might be.

Please let me remind you that my motivation is the improvements I hear in my system when it comes time to play music. If there was little or no reward at that level, I would never invest the thought or the effort. My entire motivation is the emotional reward for music listening. Romance can be hit or miss. Music is bullseyes and fireworks every time. Hearing one's entire record collection, as if for the first time, each time the application of my labours improves the result is a hugely motivating impetus.

 

[pfcs49]

This sounds very much like race car shock absorber design, a velocity sensitive damper.

 

[BilboBaggins]

Makes sense though.mif you try to bring two magnets with opposing polarity together, the opposing forces are gradual but increase logarithmically as the two magnets get closer.

 

[808_state]

Not sure how I missed this thread but I really dig the circular layout for a better distribution of weight. It makes sense. Have you considered doing the same with the rollers? For example place a circular array of rollers atop the perspex layer that rests on the magix and then a layer of perspex on the rollers and then the GT on top of that layer with maybe a layer of dampening material sandwiched between.