Thorens TD-121 or 124, commanding $2000-$4000 on Ebay, why?

It was only by viewing AudioKarma threads about these highly desirable tables did I know to look in the shadows and spot Thorens and Garrard treasures
And personal experience has taught me even more. Now I can pretty much look at the photos from an ebay listing and spot a problem or identify a unit to not bother with.

Case in point is my TD124--it's an early version (SN 12565) and Thorens made two important modifications after it was released. The Platter Bushings were changed from Nylatron to Sintered Bronze and the Stepped pulley bearing was modified to reduce noise. Had I known then what I know now I would have probably looked for a different versuib. Fortunately, my unit is serviceable, but that adds to the cost. But it's also more valuable, being an early version.
So "how much did I save" becomes the real question and the thing to keep in mind is that when buying a vintage piece, expect to pay more to make it reliable.

So I wanted a new turntable and the table I wanted had to be an upgrade rather than a lateral move. I had some factors that helped me decide. One was that I have Grado cartridges which pretty much rules out VPI because of the hum. Another was that I already owned a nice SME 3009 arm. Granted, I could have sold the cartridges and arm and put it towards something like a VPI but I didn't feel like taking a loss. A Garrard 301 or 401 was considered, but there were two things that the TD-124 had over either Garrard. The Thorens is a belt driven idler (less rumble than idler on motor) and Thorens made a very nice looking plinth for the TD124 back in the day whereas Garrard never did. I wanted a "vintage looking all the way table" and Thorens fit the bill.
Modern tables other than VPI were considered too, but the Thoren's would actually come in cheaper even after repairs.
A lot comes down to how willing you are to do some of your own maintenance verses wanting plug and play.

Something important I learned about the early versions of the TD124 has to do with the Nylatron Platter bushings. My TD124 ran beautifully for about an hour and then it started to slow down. The cause was somebody probably used motor oil as a lubricant which clogs the pores of the self lubricating Nylatron bearings. The bearings lose the ability to self lubricate, heat up from friction and expand until they seize the main spindle. The additives in motor oil pretty much kill the bearing for all practical purposes. Worse yet, Thorens changed the OD of the bushings when they switched from Nylatron to sintered bronze, which makes it difficult to replace those bushings on some of those early TD-124's. I have to send my spindle out to have it repaired properly and will be using turbine oil in the future.

I'm not blaming the previous owner because he probably assumed the problem was with the motor bushings (because that's the usual cause), serviced the motor correctly and listened for less than an hour. In his mind, the unit was properly serviced and ran beautifully. I bought the TD124 chassis, a plinth and had to make an armboard for my SME 3009. By the time I realized the problem, it was too late to ask for a refund or adjustment. Now I can look at the bottom of a TD124 photo and tell what bushing's it uses and whether or not it's worth the bother.

I'm not unhappy at all about the extra expense I've incurred to rehabilitate my TD124 because I really enjoy the way it sounds for the first hour. All said, this turntable (with tonearm, plinth and service) will cost me $2300, which is about what I would have spent on a modern table to satisfy my audio needs. Would a modern table sound the same or better? Who knows and I don't care because I really enjoy what I hear for the first hour. As far as I'm concerned, there's something about these units that makes them desirable and why people are willing to spend the money. I think the abundance of TD124's for sale has to do with the bushings, but at least they are serviceable. Another thing I like is that most of the usual replacement parts are available and that the unit is so goddamn straight forward and simple most anyone can diagnose what's going on.

As far as how much they cost to buy, they've probably doubled in price from 5 years ago, as has the Garrard 301 and 401. So I also view my TD124 as an investment. I doubt any current $2500 table will increase in value in the next 10 years.
But honestly, I don't care about the money. I just like the way it sounds and look forward to using it again as soon as the bushing issue is resolved.

To semi-answer the OP's question, I think the going price is not unreasonable. Especially when you factor in the ability to easily change the tonearm. The ability to upgrade or change the tonearm is a huge factor to me, all I need to do is change the armboard. It affords me the ability to use any cartridge I please down the line. I could even have multiple armboard/tonearm/cartridges and all it takes is 3 screws to swap. I haven't seen a modern turntable in the $2000 price range that offers that much latitude. Seriously a well thought out design. Gotta give credit where credit is due.

Just my 2 cents!
 
I love my 124. It's serial number is 12503 which makes it a very early one also. My guess would be late 1958 or early 59. I've done the upgrade mods to mine myself and they were very easy and not complicated. It has a newer SME M2-9 arm and is in a beautiful large plinth done for me by a fellow AK'er and is sporting a Denon dl 301 cart. Friends that come over and see it and listen to records can't believe something that's close to 60 years old can sound like it does.
 
If your a serious audiophile who searches to extract the best reproduction out of your records, i've learned you have to cough up in the ballpark of $3000 +/- today...anything more is overkill. in my opinion...however this is just one link in the entire chain...
 
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Something important I learned about the early versions of the TD124 has to do with the Nylatron Platter bushings. My TD124 ran beautifully for about an hour and then it started to slow down. The cause was somebody probably used motor oil as a lubricant which clogs the pores of the self lubricating Nylatron bearings. The bearings lose the ability to self lubricate, heat up from friction and expand until they seize the main spindle. The additives in motor oil pretty much kill the bearing for all practical purposes. Worse yet, Thorens changed the OD of the bushings when they switched from Nylatron to sintered bronze, which makes it difficult to replace those bushings on some of those early TD-124's. I have to send my spindle out to have it repaired properly and will be using turbine oil in the future.

more likely was what was used as a lubricant absorbed water, and the water impregnated the plastic causing it to swell. The nylatron can be hand machined.
 
Pick your poison :)

VINTAGE
Thorens TD-124 restored, modified, plinth and super tweaked $3000 - $4000
Garrard 301/401 restored, modified/tweaked $3000
Acoustic Research XA/XB restored, modified/tweaked $3000
Linn Sondek LP-12 restored, modified/tweaked $2000 - $3000
Technics SP-10 restored, modified/tweaked $2000 - $3000

NEW
VPI scoutmaster w/ JMW-9 Plus Tonearm $3000
Technics SL 1200 G reference grade $4000

Moral of this thread. If your a serious audiophile who searches to extract the best reproduction out of your records, you have to cough up in the ballpark of $3000 + today...

While a good portion of this post is right in terms of pricing. It isn't all correct, at least in regards to the modified AR XA/XB. Get one done by Marc Morin or Steve Frosten and you won't be into them for $3K. No sir. I do know this also as a fact. I have had a modified/restored Thorens TD 124 and Garrard 401. I know what they cost. Oh wait I have a Technics SP 10, and a nice plinth coming for it. So I got that one handled to.

And I have a fully modified AR XA built by Marc Morin, with a lacewood plinth done by AVFan, and an Ortofon Hi Jack arm cue device. And I don't have anywhere close to $3K in it. Heck I don't even have $2K in it. Far closer to $1K actually. And when paired with the right cartridge it is remarkably close to the SQ of my TD 124. It is one of the best values I know of for tables out there.

But yes, quality vinyl playback is going to cost some money. Vinyl is not a cheap endeavor anymore. But there are ways to do it for a reasonable cost, and there are some mighty fine options in the used market like a Systemdeck IIXE, a VPI 19 series, the AR XA (especially modified by Marc and Steve) some of the high mass Projects, and several other choices.

Regards
Mister Pig
 
Having owned and used both, I don't understand it. I mean they were preverbal freight trains. But then any thing from the past restored for memories of the past can't be explained. For $4000.00 give me one of Technics new SL 1200 G turntables. Or if you want old fashion, look for a Vpi now discontinued Aries III.
 
more likely was what was used as a lubricant absorbed water, and the water impregnated the plastic causing it to swell. The nylatron can be hand machined.

Not sure if the Nylatron absorbed water or any motor oil additives, both can cause problems. Heat actually causes the Nylatron to expand. In fact, it has one of the highest coefficients of heat expansion compared to other plastics.
I'm going to soak the assembly in Sea Foam for a day or two, it's supposed to be safe on plastics and nylon, absorb water and dissolve contaminants that may be impeding the Nylatron's inherent lubricants. I'm going to try a pure silicone lubricant next, something like gun oil.
 
Pick your poison :)


Acoustic Research XA/XB restored, modified/tweaked $2000


Moral of this thread. If your a serious audiophile who searches to extract the best reproduction out of your records, i've learned you have to cough up in the ballpark of $3000 + today...anything more is overkill. in my opinion...

where did you come up with that number?????
 
I have a TD124 that I use from time to time. When I got it 5 years ago for $700 l didn't know it would go up in value. IMO it's just another turntable. Not as good as some but better then others.
 
Your right, its more like $1000...I may have over priced it.Thanks marcmorin :) how does it perform compared to the Thorens TD-124?
 
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Kaplang, Can you name a few which in your opinion that might perform a bit better than the 124? I never heard one personally, and thats why I started this thread. A member posted a 24/96 capture of it the other day which sounds pretty good :) is nostalgia driving these prices up? the rarity, the history, the build, the look, are people just following the heard? I'm sure its part of it :) I see many people putting SME arms among others, which can be put on frankly any other turntable drive... just saying. the 124 is just a drive unit, which yes is a contributing factor to the overall performance, yes, but in my opinion the arm,cart, wiring, electronics and plinth are more important components...maybe?
 
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Can you name a few which in your opinion might sound a bit better than the 124? I never heard one personally, and thats why I started this thread. is nostalgia driving these prices up? the rarity, the history the build the look, and not the performance? I don't know :)

Mid priced tables that sound as good as a well sorted TD 124. There aren't any, perhaps a Marc Morin or Steve Frosten modified AR XA/XB. And even then they are slightly different in presentation. The TD 124 sells for what it does because of performance. If it did not sound good people would not be buying them even with the nostalgia factor. It is a mighty fine sounding table.

It seems that the 124 resides at a price point that you are not comfortable with. But you want one anyways, or want a reason for why you shouldn't want one. Forget about the table. Decide how much you are willing to spend, and then consider the best options for the money you have to spend. I have owned a Thorens TD124, Garrard 401, Morinified AR XA, Galibier Serac, and have a Technics SP 10 MK II ready to go together. I will say that the TD 124 is sonically on par with many modern $3K turntable, and its worth the money for a well sorted out one. If you want a reason for why you shouldn't buy one, just say its more than you want to spend.

Now as far as one of the best values in record spinners today, these restored/updated AR XA and XB got to be at the front of the line. You would not go wrong buying one, and get a great return on your money spent.

Regards
Mister Pig
 
Thanks Mr.Pig...Its not about the money, I have a certain dream system that I am putting together and now I am thinking of trading up my Ariston Audio rdlls turntable and I want that big plinth two arm look and I'm questioning whether $3000 for a td-124 is the answer, or a garrard 301 or something newer, like a VPI? I'm more after the best detailed sonic reproduction for $3000.

“The more expensive something is priced, the more exclusive and, therefore, desirable it becomes,”
 
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