Thoughts on Balanced Cables

Discussion in 'McIntosh Audio' started by rocknroll1, Jun 6, 2018.

  1. damacman

    damacman Blown and Injected Subscriber

    Messages:
    8,318
    Location:
    Gilbert, AZ
    Why not simply add small twins and keep the existing roots blower? This gives you the best of both worlds. Also, you pop the hood and it looks semi stock to the untrained eye ... talk to Hellion ...
     

     

    Please register to disable this ad.

  2. CruzBay

    CruzBay Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    705
    Location:
    Arlington, VA
    It's been done, as you know, but compound boost can get out of hand pretty fast! Might have to TIG weld the head on there.
     
  3. damacman

    damacman Blown and Injected Subscriber

    Messages:
    8,318
    Location:
    Gilbert, AZ
    Stock pulley on the stock blower. Add 7psi via the twins. What's the problem? That terminator 4.6L DOHC is a pretty tough animal down bottom. My '03 4.6L SOHC . . . well, that's another thing entirely . . . 8psi is max.
     
    CruzBay likes this.
  4. CruzBay

    CruzBay Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    705
    Location:
    Arlington, VA
    /Derail on...

    The Terminator engine in the '03/04 Cobra is as stout as it gets, the problem shows up as multipliers add to each other.

    A supercharger is a multiplier, let's say it makes 15 psi (atmo) to 30 psi (15 pounds of boost) making it a 1:2 device.

    Feeding it something more than atmospheric, it just multiplies things.

    So, I'm probably going to get the math wrong, but I'm 4 beers down. (lie)

    So 0 on the turbo's is 15 pounds of boost (effective)

    1 on the turbo turns into 30 pounds (the supercharger is being helpful) effective.

    It goes exponential from there.

    Reality shows up since the turbo can't feed the supercharger all it wants.

    I think compound boost is cool, but I've never seen an application where someone made it work.

    /derail off
     
  5. twiiii

    twiiii Addicted Member

    Messages:
    5,953
    Location:
    west Texas
    Canare Quad cable will do everything you need. You can buy the cable bulk with connectors and make your cables to length or they are available in common lengths. I used the Quad cable for Microphones and sensitive circuits because it was less susceptible to RF interference and interference from near by 240 and 440 power cables. exposed in theaters and auditoriums. Its very flexible and easy to handle and once used can be disconnected and stored easily for reuse. I have some cables that are almost 40 years old and they are like new. When I bought a 1000ft bulk with separate XLR connectors back then it was a lot cheaper than it is now. The shield is braided and can be a pain to work with until you develop a method,
     
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2018
  6. damacman

    damacman Blown and Injected Subscriber

    Messages:
    8,318
    Location:
    Gilbert, AZ
    Check out the kits that Hellion used to offer for the GT500s. Like anything else, this isn't really new. Turbo technology was turning the corner when the Terminator Cobras came out in 2003. By the time the GT500s came out, companies had packaging down to make such kits possible in the tight confines of such a vehicle. The factory superchargers are recommended in compound boost applications as they're a true roots style. When I say, "add 7psi via the twins" I don't mean that we should have 7psi in the airstream into the blower. Rather, that we're adding 7psi of additional boost via the twins as measured in the intake manifold. The wastegates can be managed mechanically or electrically to provide the desired results. Obviously, injector size should be increased accordingly and a/f managed in a controlled environment, such as a chassis dyno, when tuning.

    I love blowers (obviously) but they're a drag . . . on the crankshaft. The first 2psi is wasted just turning the blower in most applications. Now, on the street, positive displacement blown cars are a riot as long as you can put the power down - damn near impossible in big hp applications as the torque curve is more like a brick wall from OFF to ON. If you're not on a BIG tire, turbos and centrifugals are far easire to manage - the turbo having the edge as it's not a parasitic drag . . .
     
    CruzBay likes this.

     

    Please register to disable this ad.

  7. damacman

    damacman Blown and Injected Subscriber

    Messages:
    8,318
    Location:
    Gilbert, AZ
    Back on topic, I've made XLR cables via the methods outlined by twiiii and kevzep as well as purchased them from Guitar Center (Live Wire), Kimber (PBJ), and Wireworld (Onyx). Damned if I can tell a difference between these different cables as far as SQ goes. When it comes to interconnecting fully balanced components via XLR, this is how you take advantage of all that the engineers had to offer. Once I went balanced, I had no desire to revert to unbalanced RCAs.
     
    ossidian and CruzBay like this.
  8. CruzBay

    CruzBay Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    705
    Location:
    Arlington, VA
    This is kind of my angle. Belden 9451 is used throughout US in broadcast and recording applications, I'd guess that something similar was used around the world. And balanced vs RCA is a no brainer; the noise rejection makes it hard to make a case for RCA. The same Belden cables run line level audio hundreds of feet sometimes with no ill effects. (I've run RCA some distances too, but that's when you don't have a choice)

    The point is that all the old masterworks, from Abbey Road studios, or wherever you want to point out, used the grandfather of this cable in the original recordings we canonize today.
    Belden 9451 is used for line level audio, as well as microphone level audio today.

    But, in those days cables were of necessity, boutique cabling hadn't arrived on the scene yet.

    It's sometimes used from the patch panel to the microphones, sometimes not (It's not terribly flexible) but on a set stage it works fine, on a live event I'd use something else.

    But from the patch panel to the mixing board...Behind the panel, where nobody is looking...Except me (and Twiiii and kevzep, not that I have their experience levels) is somebody's 22ga 1 pair. (or more likely an umbilical of many pairs). Where the grandfather of 9451 (or 8723 for 2 pairs). I'd figure those guys used 16 pair or 32 pair (up to whatever) telephone wire sometimes.

    So I'm interested in reading his findings of anyone's high-resolution cables, should he use them. I'm sending him (may take a week or so) the simple basic yardstick of television audio.

    My system's a mishmash, and (like you) I haven't heard any earth-shaking differences between cables. My preferences come from how easily it's worked with, does it solder well, does the jacket hang up on conduit, how easily does it pick up noise, abrasion resistance (if exposed), fire rating (riser or plenum) et al.
     
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2018
  9. whoaru99

    whoaru99 Epic Member

    Messages:
    40,947
    Location:
    LoTL
    I have balanced and unbalanced cables made from what I'd consider an install-type cable like the 9451. Balanced is inherently strong against ingressed noise but in some cases having a braided shield is good vs. just foil. Braid is better for cables that will be flexed too. That can be an issue is some cases, in others it will never be a factor.

    For patch cables/interconnects I prefer the feel and lay of cable stock like Belden 1800F or Mogami 2549.
     
    CruzBay likes this.
  10. CruzBay

    CruzBay Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    705
    Location:
    Arlington, VA

    I'm trying to remember what I'd make for the field guys. It's a rugged Beldin cable with just as you described. All stranded cable, copper braid. Held up well, just needed to put a little extra strain relief on the female end for the microphone droop. (They all need that)

    My only bitch about it was the jacket was rubberized, not poly like the one you mentioned. It'd hang up on things, when you'd pull it, if it found a foot on a mic stand it'd slide the stand. (NBD)

    One thing I liked, and the field guys too was that it would page really well, and the rubber gave it a good handfeel.

    Carry on...
     
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2018
  11. whoaru99

    whoaru99 Epic Member

    Messages:
    40,947
    Location:
    LoTL
    @CruzBay

    I think I have a couple 50-ft cables made from that heavy duty Belden stuff you're talking about. Don't recall the number offhand. Maybe I'll dig it up when I get home.
     
    CruzBay likes this.

     

    Please register to disable this ad.

  12. CruzBay

    CruzBay Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    705
    Location:
    Arlington, VA
    Been looking over the Belden mic cable PDF, not seeing it. Never used the 1800F, although my last facility was all digital. I don't have a preference for Mogami or Belden, they're both very good cable. Mogami gave me a little more room in a conduit, I terminated more Belden, over the years, though.

    It had 20/18ga stranded conductors, black and white, tinned copper shield, no drain wire, EPDM jacket. Thinking that if I ever go balanced, I'd probably make my cables from those, although from looking at all the new variants- the 9397 might be what gets the go. PVC jacket instead of the rubber, though, but for a cable that's not being handled all that much flexibility doesn't add much. (Hell, 9451 might get the go as well...it's cable) I have no problems with Star-quad, we had that stocked too.

    Let me know what you have; I scoured my wire basket finding none of it.

    Thanks!

    Mike
     
  13. exhippy

    exhippy I use to have long hair. Now I'm lucky to have any Subscriber

    Messages:
    1,375
    Location:
    St. Louis County, MO. U.S.A.
    Sorry for the off topic, but just returning a call........

    I've only seen one in my area several years ago, but the owner was going to ditch it in the upcoming winter, complained about tuning.

    I may go back to stock with my Cobra and sell (the kids love'em and pay good money for low milers. 19,xxx miles on mine.)
    Then give Ford another year or so to work-out the new bugs with this new 5.0 port/direct injection engine. Hell, they're into the 9's with very little upgrading and into high 8's with more upgrades. Damn, I remember back in late 02 Ford telling us mid 12's from the factory and that was FAST!
     
    CruzBay likes this.
  14. motorstereo

    motorstereo AK Subscriber Subscriber

    Messages:
    10,464
    Location:
    Connecticut
    Why not get a pair or 2 or 3 of Mogamis or Beldens (since they're cheap) and try them against something a bit better and let your ears be the judge. If you can't hear a difference then stay with those Mogamis or Beldens; and consider yourself a lucky man:beerchug:
     
    CruzBay likes this.
  15. whoaru99

    whoaru99 Epic Member

    Messages:
    40,947
    Location:
    LoTL
    @CruzBay

    The long ones I mentioned are Belden 8412.
     
    CruzBay likes this.
  16. BobbyBluz

    BobbyBluz Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    917
    Before I retired from the radio station I made all the cables for the broadcast and production studios. While I preferred Neutrik XLR connectors (easiest to work with) I used anything I found in our engineering workshop at the time. As far as cable goes our Operations Director did all the ordering and there were a few choices for different applications. For short cables there's no need to get neurotic, no matter what wire I used there were never any issues. For my own use I've been getting the cheap copies of Neutrik XLR's off Ebay dirt cheap, For RCA I still prefer Switchcraft connectors. I still have a nice stash of cable I salvaged from various places that works great. No noise, low or no cost are keys for my needs.
     
    CruzBay likes this.

     

    Please register to disable this ad.

  17. smartin53

    smartin53 Active Member

    Messages:
    499
    Location:
    Denver
    I have this thing about cables. I do like well constructed cables, but I do not buy into most of the snake oil. For example, I regularly use an RCA cable that came with my original Nintendo NES in 1985 for audio and I simply can't tell a difference between the Audioquest balanced cables and the old NES cable on my MX120/MC275 setup...hence why I use it to connect my C28 to the MC2505 now (I will giggle if everyone starts buying old NES' to obtain the RCA cable and try to market them as magical $500 strings).

    s-l300.jpg
     
    BobbyBluz likes this.
  18. whoaru99

    whoaru99 Epic Member

    Messages:
    40,947
    Location:
    LoTL
  19. CruzBay

    CruzBay Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    705
    Location:
    Arlington, VA
    That looks like it. I don't remember the cotton wrap, but it's been some time since I worked with any.

    Thanks for the writeup on your CAT5 experiment, another thing that most don't realize about CAT wire is that the pairs are all of different lengths due to differential twisting to reduce crosstalk. Higher twist means a longer wire pair.

    This is what gives us the 100 meter maximum on distance; it needs to be reclocked as high data rates reach the end of the cable at different times.
    Not a problem with audio frequencies, but when you get into seriously high frequency data rates; it matters.

    By the chart, the brown pair is the shortest, the green pair; the longest. I got into a brief argument with J Logan about this, and just let it go.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2018
  20. MACKIE1975

    MACKIE1975 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    700
    Speak from experience. I own a bunch of Monster, AudioQuest cable ( especially the one with the battery inline) and now all of them in the box after I replaced these exotic (snake oil) cables with Amazonbasics and can't tell the different.
     
    CruzBay likes this.

Share This Page