I have heard lots of difference between CD players. Have not lined up various DACs. I know for a fact its not just 1's and 0's. But the blowhards who know nothing are the ones saying that then arguing with themselves. I simply heard something from a credible source that I doubted somewhat which is evident from my first post to start the thread. A few guys with good posts came in to help me out. But the others are just posting nonsense because they simply have no clue. Those with no clue always hide behind attitude and conjecture. Thus another thread is lost to the same few people who bury every thread.
To DAC or not to DAC .... myth?
- Thread starter lashing
- Start date
- Status
TerryO
Super Member
I suppose you're talking about me, but you're just too nice to come right out and say it, although there is perhaps an alternative reason.
Wigwam Jones
Caesar non supra grammati
You are absolutely correct. I didn't know I was color-blind until my parents started getting negative reports about my behavior in school. My parents had switched me from public school to Catholic school that year, and the crayons used in class were big thick things with no labels on them. When I was in public school, I simply read the labels. I knew that sky was blue and grass was green, so I choose the right crayons. In Catholic school, with no labels on the crayons, I chose the ones that looked right to me. So my skies were purple and my grass was brown, and the teachers thought I was doing it on purpose to be disruptive.
And you are also correct about people 'telling you' about colors. I can't begin to count the number of times people have thought that if they just explained colors to me, I'd suddenly be able to see them. Trust me, it's like shouting at a person who doesn't speak English; your volume does not make them suddenly understand your words.
Getting back to the DAC, the fact is that some people can hear a difference and some cannot.
For the longest time, I thought all CD players sounded exactly the same. So I was pretty much of the opinion that it was all snake oil. Sorry, that's what I thought, based on my own ears.
However, I have since then heard some CD playback on modern day DVD players, once touted as good 'cheap' CDP, and they sounded much worse, even to my ears. So I get it. Different DACs sound different.
But for me, it takes a pretty large difference before I hear it. Quite a few of them still sound the same to me. Ooh, here's a Burr-Brown and here's a TI blah blah blah. Yeah, OK. If you say you can hear the difference, I believe you. But I can't. Just like being color-blind; it is what it is and I can't change that. Not even by 'careful listening' as some insist. I can't see colors I can't see by 'careful watching'. One either can or one cannot. My 2 cents.
Wigwam Jones
Caesar non supra grammati
Understood. Time has passed me by here. At one time, it was all about the chip. Everyone could spout the maker and model of the DAC chipset itself, even the fab plant it was made; kinda like tube rolling. Now we're talking about externals DACS and their various capabilities, not just the chipset itself. In any case, I agree, there are differences. Some of us have a bit of a harder time telling them apart by sound, but I have no doubt that the differences exist, now that I've finally heard a 'bad' one and know what they sound like.
Catcher10
Prog-tastic!
I too have had electrical engineers tell me the same.....basically no need to spend more than $100 in total for a CDP. That the DAC portion in a $100 CDP and a $700 CDP are the same quality and performance as well as drives.
I am not an engineer, nor have I ever built any gear...but my ears tell me there is a pretty big difference not only in $100 to $700 but also to a 30yr old CDP and one from today.
I had a Sony CDP302 that was really nice, purchased new in '85ish....till it died on me and I started auditioning new ones 2yrs ago....I was shocked at the sonic difference.
I am not an engineer, nor have I ever built any gear...but my ears tell me there is a pretty big difference not only in $100 to $700 but also to a 30yr old CDP and one from today.
I had a Sony CDP302 that was really nice, purchased new in '85ish....till it died on me and I started auditioning new ones 2yrs ago....I was shocked at the sonic difference.
pete_mac
Super Member
The convenience factor of digital is a big determinant for many people, myself included. It's simply not worth my while to invest too heavily in my analogue rig, especially when digital can sound this damn good.
TerryO
Super Member
A fair amount of the sonic improvement that has been made in the last few years is the result of the return to sound Electrical Engineering by well qualified people. The crummy sound that was common to digital was commonly the result of having the design work done by digital doctrine practitioners/ engineers whose whole outlook was devoted to digital signal processing, usually in conjunction with computers. The problem was that those signals, when used for music, had to be converted to analog sound at some point and that's where most of the problems occured.
Many of the things that I mentioned just a few years ago on this (and other forums) were rediculed and dismissed as the mutterings of a diseased mind. Today, it's taken a turn and most of it is generally accepted and perhaps more important, has been acted upon to improve digital-based sound reproduction a great deal.
Best Regards,
TerryO
Many of the things that I mentioned just a few years ago on this (and other forums) were rediculed and dismissed as the mutterings of a diseased mind. Today, it's taken a turn and most of it is generally accepted and perhaps more important, has been acted upon to improve digital-based sound reproduction a great deal.
Best Regards,
TerryO
Last edited:
shelby1420
Enjoying the music.....
Ayup!!!
Taowolf51
Well-Known Member
Agreed, both have benefits and drawbacks (usually the benefit of one is the drawback of the other). Moving to the higher end on both sides benefits by reducing those drawbacks.
Wow a decent post from you. This fellow I referenced in my first post is one such fellow as you elude to. More a computer guy than a sound guy. But he is an engineer, I am not.
So really a DAC is a synthesizer .... its not simply converting digital but shaping the sound. If they didn't they would all sound exactly the same.
Taowolf51
Well-Known Member
It's as much of a synthesizer as an amp or turntable cartridge is.
Add here digital reconstruction filter - they all sound different too (just try a DAC where you can select one of several filters).
xraelx74
AudioFool
All audio, No attitude.
I've only ever been a member of this web forum (Audiokarma) so i don't have experience with how things work at other forum websites. But from what i've gathered from other more established member's posts is that AK is a little different from the rest. Different in no small part to the mantra i quoted above. So while this may come off as attutude (especially because i'm not a super "established member" myself yet)...I just want to point that out.
I think you'll have a better time on AK and get better responses if you curb the more cutting responses. The more time you spend here, the more you'll notice that posts like that stick out like a sore thumb.
THAT BEING SAID:
In response to the OP...it appears that you'll looking for someone to send you a link to a spreadsheet that has frequency response curves and other such data plots that "factually" show that one DAC is better than another DAC...well you just aren't going to get that. Specs to an extent are only specs.
An analogy i'll use is to computers. Faster is better for a computer, so the parts are whats important. There isn't a "nuanced" fastness, or a "style" of fast. Fast is fast.
Audio is not this way. Yes, two amps my be 200 wpc. But that might be the end of the similarities. Sound is "nuanced" Sound has a "style" which means that audio components strive to be greater than the sum of their parts. And this also means you have to go out and listen for you self to find out what you like in the end. Period.
As mentioned earlier, someone said that two DACs using the same chips sound different because the amount of R&D done on the circuitry and making it sound the best.
DACs are no different in this respect from any other audio related item, yes cables and interconnects included.
Olafur
Member
Before I came onto AK I never heard of DAC, when I registered on AK I was catching up hard on the subject and found very valuable information to form a decision on which direction I wanted to go with my audio equipment. I have most my music collection in digital format and wanted to stear away from having to plug my computer with and audio jack to the amplifier to not having to use my pc at all when listening to music, because pc's are so distracting and timeconsuming.
The choices are endless if you don't know what you want and vendors can wrap you up in silk sale pitches poking you to buy something you don't need, but it comes down to making an informed choice of gear within the budget you have to spend.
I am VERY happy with the result, and I have had days where I was on the brink of madness trying to grasp the theory behind DAC and the different ways it was brought unto the market. It was worth it al the way. If there wasn't any difference in sound I still would be plugging the pc into the amp, because there is an internal DAC in the pc.
AK is a group of HIFI enthousiast, your friend probably doesn't care for HIFI at all, his opinion is coloured by it. AK members can drool over a new TOTL item that comes out or over some vintage rustbucket that they managed to revive, read up hours with no end on reviews and tech specs, etc. eventually sometimes forgetting to simply enjoy the music that is playing. But I like to come here to chime in on a shared interessed.
If the Marantz CDP is your pick then why would you listen to someone who isn't into HIFI to buy some piece of crappy shanghai? Maybe he is obsessed by cars and you could advise him that all cars are basicly four wheels driven by an engine, so don't go throwing away your money on a fancy full option Rolls Royce when the Dacia is basicly doing the same.
The choices are endless if you don't know what you want and vendors can wrap you up in silk sale pitches poking you to buy something you don't need, but it comes down to making an informed choice of gear within the budget you have to spend.
I am VERY happy with the result, and I have had days where I was on the brink of madness trying to grasp the theory behind DAC and the different ways it was brought unto the market. It was worth it al the way. If there wasn't any difference in sound I still would be plugging the pc into the amp, because there is an internal DAC in the pc.
AK is a group of HIFI enthousiast, your friend probably doesn't care for HIFI at all, his opinion is coloured by it. AK members can drool over a new TOTL item that comes out or over some vintage rustbucket that they managed to revive, read up hours with no end on reviews and tech specs, etc. eventually sometimes forgetting to simply enjoy the music that is playing. But I like to come here to chime in on a shared interessed.
If the Marantz CDP is your pick then why would you listen to someone who isn't into HIFI to buy some piece of crappy shanghai? Maybe he is obsessed by cars and you could advise him that all cars are basicly four wheels driven by an engine, so don't go throwing away your money on a fancy full option Rolls Royce when the Dacia is basicly doing the same.
fhawk618
Super Member
I tried, in my earlier post, to provide some actual techical insight into why different DACs sound different, and I think the OP got it...
But now that the thread is winding down and getting derailed... here is the ultimate answer... IT ONLY MATTERS IF IT SOUNDS GOOD TO YOU!!!
But now that the thread is winding down and getting derailed... here is the ultimate answer... IT ONLY MATTERS IF IT SOUNDS GOOD TO YOU!!!
roscoofyore
New Member
hmmm. an old thread by today's standards but i'll contribute.
as an engineering student i can understand the view point being that all/most DACs sound the same, that 'can' be true but the major difference being is the output stage, this 'analog' portion of it's design is where the magic happens, this is where digital becomes analog and must be treated with utmost care. this is where a lot of research and development of a given audio company invests in to produce the sound they want. whether using opamps, tubes or what have you. if this area of analog implimentation is ignored or treated of lesser priority with inferior parts, then it will sound woeful. an excellent DAC with a properly engineered output section and a decent CD transport will sound noticably better than your average cheap CDP. then there are the many DAC chip makers to contend with that opens up a different can of worms.
just my .2cents.
as an engineering student i can understand the view point being that all/most DACs sound the same, that 'can' be true but the major difference being is the output stage, this 'analog' portion of it's design is where the magic happens, this is where digital becomes analog and must be treated with utmost care. this is where a lot of research and development of a given audio company invests in to produce the sound they want. whether using opamps, tubes or what have you. if this area of analog implimentation is ignored or treated of lesser priority with inferior parts, then it will sound woeful. an excellent DAC with a properly engineered output section and a decent CD transport will sound noticably better than your average cheap CDP. then there are the many DAC chip makers to contend with that opens up a different can of worms.
just my .2cents.
- Status
