TPA 3116 vs the tripaths

[45rpmspinner]

The TPA3250 chip is more complex. Looking at the spec sheet, it has an error function built into the chip.

Still, not sure why the error condition is kicking in and shutting down the amp. My guesses are either overheating, a power issue, or a bad board. This seems to only happen when I am cranking it up to beyond listening levels (but that is only at 1/2 volume). Turning it off, then on again immediately gets it going. That makes me think that the error is momentary, but the amp is shutdown. That could make overheating less likely, but I don't know how long it would take to dissipate the extra heat. Maybe the heatsink can cool the chip down nearly instantly when it shuts off. It shouldn't be the powersupply, as this is not a random one they threw in, it is the OEM supply that comes with the amp from the manufacturer and should have been tested at 1/2 volume for sustained periods.

I don't see where you've stated specs on the power supply. Just because it's what's supplied with the unit doesn't necessarily mean it's up to your expectations.

And yeah, I'd say it's likely the under voltage protection circuit since it doesn't sound like it's overheating.

 

[bubba42]

I don't see where you've stated specs on the power supply. Just because it's what's supplied with the unit doesn't necessarily mean it's up to your expectations.

And yeah, I'd say it's likely the under voltage protection circuit since it doesn't sound like it's overheating.

It is the included 24V 4A brick. Also shown on the eBay ad. You would think that the manufacturer wouldn't have it so it shuts off so easily, right?

 

[beastwoo]

What's the value of the cap bank in the Nobsound dual 3116?

Not sure I'm qualified to answer that question. I was just wondering why the TPA3116 build has a very large bank of capacitors (10 of 'em) while the TPA3250 does not (looks like 2). I thought the point of these was to store power needed for strong dynamic sections of music.

Now that I've listened to both of them, to my ears the FX Audio TPA3250 sounds better overall, including better bass.

Here is a picture of the insides of the Nobsound/Breeze dual-chip TPA3116 followed by the FX Audio TPA3250 (according to sellers on eBay).

 

[bubba42]

Yes, 2 much bigger caps in the TPA3250, not sure of rating. I have the Breeze dual and single chip units as well. I think the single-chip TPA3116 caps are rated at 470uF 25V.

@beastwoo if you play your TPA3250 FX502SPRO very loud, does yours get the ERROR light and shut off?

I haven't done enough head-to-head listening, but I thought the TPA3250 sounded better too.

 

[45rpmspinner]

It is the included 24V 4A brick. Also shown on the eBay ad. You would think that the manufacturer wouldn't have it so it shuts off so easily, right?

That's fine for 35-40 watts per channel [basically as advertised].....but you are "pushing" the amp, right?
Depends on whether the board itself can handle it, but according to TI the 3250 would be fine with twice that power.

 

[bubba42]

I am just playing it at 1/2 volume using 8 Ohm speakers. I would expect the chip to be able to handle that easily. I'd also expect that any manufacturer would make the amp at least go past 1/2 without issue. I'm wondering if I have a defective one, so am interested in hearing ibeastwoo's experience or any other owner of the FX502SPRO.

That's fine for 35-40 watts per channel [basically as advertised].....but you are "pushing" the amp, right?
Depends on whether the board itself can handle it, but according to TI the 3250 would be fine with twice that power.

 

[Pio1980]

Obviously, not the case with the oversensitive examples with the 3116 chips.

Again, the position of the level control will be unrelated to the actual output vs capacity of the power supply vs chip power capacity plus input level. It is all relative to actual input level, plus rated sensitivity, plus power supply, plus chip output limit into actual load.

 

[Pio1980]

Not sure I'm qualified to answer that question. I was just wondering why the TPA3116 build has a very large bank of capacitors (10 of 'em) while the TPA3250 does not (looks like 2). I thought the point of these was to store power needed for strong dynamic sections of music.

Now that I've listened to both of them, to my ears the FX Audio TPA3250 sounds better overall, including better bass.

Here is a picture of the insides of the Nobsound/Breeze dual-chip TPA3116 followed by the FX Audio TPA3250 (according to sellers on eBay).

The capacitor bank should help on peaks, but can only do so much to make up for heavy current draw from a relatively lossy supply source.

 

[bubba42]

Again, the position of the level control will be unrelated to the actual output vs capacity of the power supply vs chip power capacity plus input level. It is all relative to actual input level, plus rated sensitivity, plus power supply, plus chip output limit into actual load.

Yes, that is true, but if a manufacturer is making an amp plus power supply, that manufacturer should make the system such that it can drive a normal input source to normal impedance speakers throughout the volume range of the amp. That is just simple design.

If you bought a amplifier from, say Denon, would you not be surprised if it malfunctioned at 1/2 volume when using normal input/outputs? What you say is much more relevant if one is piecing together an amp, preamp, potentiometer, and power supply, not for a finished unit.

 

[Pio1980]

Yes, that is true, but if a manufacturer is making an amp plus power supply, that manufacturer should make the system such that it can drive a normal input source to normal impedance speakers throughout the volume range of the amp. That is just simple design.

If you bought a amplifier from, say Denon, would you not be surprised if it malfunctioned at 1/2 volume when using normal input/outputs? What you say is much more relevant if one is piecing together an amp, preamp, potentiometer, and power supply, not for a finished unit.

Agreed, if they can predict the likely average input level.
Do you know what it's input sensitivity is for full output. Do you know the output level of your sources relative to your other amps?
I like one Volt line/ 50k input level to allow direct input from typical sources. Line level standard has been two volt, except British at one half volt.
British amps typically had four times the gain sensitivity of most others at one time, the preamps one quarter the output level of most others. Some mfgr's, like McIntosh, provided extra gain with an input control to take most any preamp.

 

[Pio1980]

I dunno why the apparent disparity with sensitivity with some of these amps, it does ding the appeal to have to deal with it. The Nobsound happens to work well with my setup as I have control of the input level to the amp block, I need to put the Sure TDA7492 block in and check it's input level.
I have an XH-M190 dual TPA3116 board I haven't tried yet, and am still waiting the new TPA3250 chip amp block under discussion.

 

[Pio1980]

Checked the spec for the Sure AA-AS32171 TDA7492 amp block and found it's input sensitivity rated 3500 mV, 3.5 Volt input. Not particularly sensitive. That is where I got my impression the amps minus the pre weren't very sensitive. As I said earlier, ca 1 Volt for full output would work for me as I prefer a passive controller to an active preamp.
http://store3.sure-electronics.com/2-x-50-watt-class-d-audio-amplifier-tda7492

 

[Pio1980]

Stated input sensitivity of the Dual TOPA3116 chip Nobsound with NE5532 preamp is 280 mV, about a quarter Volt. That is 1/8 of 2.0 Volt line standard. Overloading is very likely with standard line level straight in. I dunno why they do that.
http://vi.raptor.ebaydesc.com/ws/eB...ategory=14970&pm=1&ds=0&t=1510131015000&ver=0

 

[Pio1980]

The spex for the FX502SPRO are here;
http://vi.raptor.ebaydesc.com/ws/eB...ategory=14970&pm=1&ds=0&t=1513648955000&ver=0
Input sensitivity at 0.775 mV into 60k for full output is imo just about perfect for direct line in from most sources, rendering a preamp unnecessary.
Expect overdrive from a standard 2 Volt line source or preamp well before full scale on level control.

 

[Yatsushiro]

I am just playing it at 1/2 volume using 8 Ohm speakers. I would expect the chip to be able to handle that easily. I'd also expect that any manufacturer would make the amp at least go past 1/2 without issue. I'm wondering if I have a defective one, so am interested in hearing ibeastwoo's experience or any other owner of the FX502SPRO.

Over on DIYAudio, Kaffiman has the same unit, with a similar reported problem (http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/class-d/315681-tpa-3250-listening-post5289028.html)

I also recall when we first received the 3250 EVM amps, anything less than about a 28V/5A PS caused that particular amp to go into clipping, if the volume was too high. There were a couple of posts on DIYAudio about this.

Have you measured the output of your PS? Are you getting the full 24V and 4A?

I'd be tempted to try running with a 28/32V & 5A ps minimum.

 

[bubba42]

Yes he reports the same issue I have seen, thanks for the link, @Yatsushiro I posted a reply over there too.

Originally Posted by KaffiMann
Got them in house just now.
I will not comment on general sound quality just yet. But compared to the 4-5 different tpa3116's I have heard, the tpa3250 is in a different league. Bass is MUCH better defined. I think it will be interesting to try it up against the folsom tda7297.

I managed to get the error lamp blinking, played some loud reggae, right channel just cut during a peak, left kept playing on. Reset the amp and everything is well again. It seems something happens if the in-level is a touch too high and the amp pot-meter is a bit high also, just a click or two down the volume on my phone and max volume is no problem. There might be some gentle compression but I may be imagining things. Transients are pretty good.​

That tells me at least I am in good company. Although annoying, I don't think this will be a problem for me. 1/2 volume is too loud to stand being in the room. I am not sure I'd even need 1/4 regularly.


Also, and this is the bigger thing, so far I think this is better than the TPA3116s that I have found (particularly the Breeze and Nobsound). Like KaffiMann says:

Originally Posted by KaffiMann

In short: The TPA3250 is better than the TPA3116.

Is it much better? That depends on your application.

It is slightly more powerful, you can get probably 2x25w nearly clean power (guesstimate somewhere between 0.01-0.001% distortion) in 8 ohm with the included PSU.
Whereas the TPA3116 also gives 2x25w in 8 ohms but at 21V max, and 10% distortion.
It seems to be a slightly better designed PCB, there may be some power conditioning going on (not tested), there is a pre-amp stage containing the well known NE5532, seemingly well optimized for modern use at 0.775mv specified input voltage.
Many TPA3116 seem to be set to very aggressive gain settings making it more noisy than it has to be, and there is often no pre-stage on the stuff sold cheap on ebay.​

Originally Posted by KaffiMann

Bottom line: Excellent value for money! Very good sound quality on low-mid-and a little bit loud levels.

My wife also (completely unprovoked) commented on an apparent upgrade in sonic qualities, though she has a problem expressing the specific differences compared to some quite good TPA3116's, when prodded further she said "it's just better". I assume a big part of it is lower noise floor, but it seems to be just a little bit better in every way, bass is more defined, mids sound pretty good, treble is pretty good. Though I have heard better in a completely different price league. It compares favorably to some low priced but decent quality, new off the shelf class ab amps with good specs.
If you want/need more power go for the TPA3255 instead.​

 

[beastwoo]

@beastwoo if you play your TPA3250 FX502SPRO very loud, does yours get the ERROR light and shut off?

I haven't had the FX Audio TPA3250 shut off on me yet. When I first got it I probably had it up around 5/8ths into bookshelf speakers, trying to find where I could start to notice distortion. Like you, I can't actually listen to music at that volume. I currently have the amp connected to more efficient floor standing speakers, and I can't get the volume knob near 1/2 way before I give up (the error light in my head goes on).

I should also note that I'm typically running this amp with a 19V 6A power supply because I thought it sounded slightly better than the stock power supply when I played musical chairs with my power supplies. I may try something with higher voltage and amperage if I can find it.

 

[bubba42]

Yes, it is not all songs that cause it to error. I had had it cranked up for a much longer time and it didn't ERROR out. I need to do more testing, but if it really is better, I have a couple of TPA3116 units to replace.

What is the 19V 6A PS you are using? I might not need it, as I already have the 24V 4A that came with it and that provides more than enough power beyond normal listening volumes. @Yatsushiro I did measure the voltage of the PS and it checked out. I don't know how to measure the amperage, how does one do that with a simple multimeter?

 

[enprac]

OK, I just tested it playing it at 1/2 volume. It shut itself off with a flashing red ERROR light on the front panel. I don't know if the flashing red ERROR light tells us what the cause is. Granted 1/2 volume is a lot, but I don't think it should do that, regardless. I emailed the ebay seller asking for help fixing this.

Have a look at : http://www.ti.com/product/TPA3250

Also have a read of : http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/tpa3250.pdf in particular page 10 , Fig 4, supply voltage versus output power in BTL mode, 4 & 8 Ohm loads. Allowing for inefficiencies etc (amplifier & PS), if you want to go deaf, you're looking at a PS of 32V & 5A or more (to allow for peaks). There's a lot of good info in that document; what is an unknown is the design implementation/componentry of your amplifier in comparison to TI's recommendations

24V & 4A for the TPA3250 won't do the job for deafness &, as someone mentioned, the position of the volume pot isn't a reliable indicator of the output power level

I like Mean Well SMPSs, but they're expensive ... however, a reasonable amplifier with a cheap & cheerful PS of dubious quality & probably pumping out more Volts & less current than stated on the label makes little sense (IMHO)

P = V x A x efficiency ... & then plus some for the peaks

Also IMHO, the TPA3116 with a 12V power supply is a waste of time if you want very high volume, because THD becomes an issue; a 19V/4A or 5A name brand laptop PS works a treat. That keyboarded, 12V/4A or 5A for the TPA3116 is fine for a 5m x 5m or a bit larger room at normal listening level ... however, what's normal for one person is not so for another (or for a deaf person ), hence PS voltage/current becomes subjective &/or contentious

j.R.c

 

[Pio1980]

Yes he reports the same issue I have seen, thanks for the link, @Yatsushiro I posted a reply over there too.

Originally Posted by KaffiMann
Got them in house just now.
I will not comment on general sound quality just yet. But compared to the 4-5 different tpa3116's I have heard, the tpa3250 is in a different league. Bass is MUCH better defined. I think it will be interesting to try it up against the folsom tda7297.

I managed to get the error lamp blinking, played some loud reggae, right channel just cut during a peak, left kept playing on. Reset the amp and everything is well again. It seems something happens if the in-level is a touch too high and the amp pot-meter is a bit high also, just a click or two down the volume on my phone and max volume is no problem. There might be some gentle compression but I may be imagining things. Transients are pretty good.​

That tells me at least I am in good company. Although annoying, I don't think this will be a problem for me. 1/2 volume is too loud to stand being in the room. I am not sure I'd even need 1/4 regularly.


Also, and this is the bigger thing, so far I think this is better than the TPA3116s that I have found (particularly the Breeze and Nobsound). Like KaffiMann says:

Originally Posted by KaffiMann

In short: The TPA3250 is better than the TPA3116.

Is it much better? That depends on your application.

It is slightly more powerful, you can get probably 2x25w nearly clean power (guesstimate somewhere between 0.01-0.001% distortion) in 8 ohm with the included PSU.
Whereas the TPA3116 also gives 2x25w in 8 ohms but at 21V max, and 10% distortion.
It seems to be a slightly better designed PCB, there may be some power conditioning going on (not tested), there is a pre-amp stage containing the well known NE5532, seemingly well optimized for modern use at 0.775mv specified input voltage.
Many TPA3116 seem to be set to very aggressive gain settings making it more noisy than it has to be, and there is often no pre-stage on the stuff sold cheap on ebay.​

Originally Posted by KaffiMann

Bottom line: Excellent value for money! Very good sound quality on low-mid-and a little bit loud levels.

My wife also (completely unprovoked) commented on an apparent upgrade in sonic qualities, though she has a problem expressing the specific differences compared to some quite good TPA3116's, when prodded further she said "it's just better". I assume a big part of it is lower noise floor, but it seems to be just a little bit better in every way, bass is more defined, mids sound pretty good, treble is pretty good. Though I have heard better in a completely different price league. It compares favorably to some low priced but decent quality, new off the shelf class ab amps with good specs.
If you want/need more power go for the TPA3255 instead.​

Directed to both of you, and anybody else here;
I think I noticed just a bit of a brittle edge to the sound of the Nobsound 3116+ on Genesis' Trick of the Tail CD, and switched the Marantz 8 back in as a parity check, and it's not the recording.
Is this the qualifier, iyo?