Tube amp or Magnepan speakers?

[Chris Brown]

So I went into one of the local stereo shops, and they had some great stuff. I asked the guy to demo me some gear. He showed me a pair of Top of the line magnepans powered by a tube amp (Didn’t catch the brand).

…It was hands down the best stereo sound I’ve ever heard. I was totally blown away by how good it sounded.

Right now I’m running a Pioneer SX-1050 paired up with a pair of JBL L150’s. I like the way this sounds, but it still doesn’t sound as good (to my ear) as what I heard in the store.

Well I have limited funds to say the least, which means I need to focus my purchases in only one area at a time. I could either focus on getting a tube amp, or getting a pair of magnepans. I’m just not sure what it was that made the setup sound so great. Should I try and get a tube amp and use my JBL’s, or get a pair of magnepans and power them using my pioneer?

It’s impossible to try and describe how it sounded, but from how tube owners describe the sound… It seems like that is the area I should concentrate on… but either way, if $2000 later it still doesn’t sound any better then I’m going to be seriously bummed.

Any advice would be great!

 

[BeatleFred]

If you arent aware of it, Maganepans are notorious for requiring a really, REALLY hefty current-providing amp that can handle its low impedance which goes down pretty low (from what I hear anyway such as in the Planar Speakers section at www.audioasylum.com) Also there are concerns regarding using your vintage Pioneer w/ Magnepans. This very topic just came up over at the Yahoo Sansui Groups Message Bd (and asylum too)- Someone has a pair of Magnepans and a vintage 160 Watt Sansui G-9000 receiver and he claims the Sansui cant handle the speakers.

I can understand your enthusiasm for the Magnepans- its a planar design - similar to my Infinity Renaissance 90 speakers. They are capable, when set up properly, of providing a sense of Soundstage that is nothing short of Outstanding in the company of the best speakers out there ever made. Just so happens though that not too many people are aware of the Ren 90's (made 1992-94). And they dont know what theyre missing. The unanimous reviews at www.audioreview.com says it all (Reviews, Main Speakers, I for Infinity, scroll down to Ren 90's, if youre interested). The good thing about the Ren 90's as opposed to the Magnepans is that the impedance curve is not a problem, 3.3 ohms I believe is the low value for the Ren 90's.

So please keep in mind, the amplification issue when it comes to Magnepan speakers.

 

[Chris Brown]

So you think what I heard was more due to the planar speakers than the tube amp?

 

[ProAc_Fan]

I'd think it was the maggies more than the tube amp. That must be one hell of a tube amp to drive those Maggies. They are a notoriously power hungry speaker just like my DQ-10's. What sort of volume level did you audition these speakers at? The sort of tube amp that could adequately drive these to more than 100dB would be big $$$.

Mike

 

[michael w]

Just to clear up a few things about Magnepans.

Yes they do require an amp that can deliver lots of current.
This usually means SS or a huge tube amp.

Their impedance is actually quite benign.
Most models are 4 ohms but this is purely resistive so shouldn't present a problem to an amp capable of sriving a 4 ohm load.

Magnepans are open baffle dipolar speakers.
They project an equal soundfield front and rear, with the rear field being out of phase to the front. This means they need lots of breathing room and careful placement.

By comparison the Renn 90's mentioned by BeatleFred are not really planars but are conventional box speakers albeit with exotic HF and mid drivers that have a dipolar dispersion pattern.

Without knowing more about the system Chris heard, it's difficult to pinpoint the source of his elation.


cheerio

 

[Chris Brown]

The listening level was fairly low; We could talk over it quite easily.

 

[BeatleFred]

I would suggest, if you are interested to do so, contact other Magnepan owners- they exist in abundance from what I see over in the Planars section at audioasylum.

I think if you can speak to several people about it, you'll then be able to obtain an overall consensus on what the issues are regarding its impedance and how much power (or rather, current it needs) and which amps are suitable for it. The other person who posted above said its a benign 4 ohms- well, ok- if thats in fact so, then it shouldnt be anything too complex for most amps out there. The issue really is though: just how much does the speaker deviate from 4 ohms throughout the freq range?

As for your question: Yes, I am inclined to think it was the speakers that made the lasting impression on you more so than the tube amp.

As for the other person's comments on the Renaissance 90's- about the "conventional" box speakers and planar design--> I was referring to the EMIT & EMIM drivers on them which to my knowledge is a planar design and how its described as such in the Infinity brochure and technical manual I have.

The Ren 90 enclosure is very, VERY elegant. (Better photos can be seen on the www.bobbshred.com/infinity.html site, scroll down to Link for Infinity Classics site) Rounded corners taper sharply depthwise to give it an almost trapezoidal shape. When you sit down and look at them, you cant see any of the cabinet behind it, similar looking to say, a flat panel computer screen.
The previous Kappa model Infinity's of the late 80's sortve had this shape, but it was improved upon and looks much classier on the aptly named Renaissance models. And Infinity did this not just for the sake to make it look nice, but for Acoustic principles as well. So, I dont know if the word, "conventional" really does it justice. There is certainly nothing conventional about their sound quality- when you hear them, you are hearing a pair of truly OUTSTANDING speakers. As should be the case for something of their price when sold new and built to last a lifetime. Should anyone need more convincing of that, I'll send xerox copies of reviews I have on the model. I have yet to read anything in print that has a word negative to say about them

 

[Markw]

You heard the maggies. At a low level, but you were hearing the Maggies.

They do require serious power to do their best. I wonder how that tube amp would have done at loud levels playing Bela Fleck's Flight of the Cosmic Hioop at a decent volume?

My 1.6's would drain my NAD 214 (approx 120 wpc @ 4 ohms) and on occasion (usually a low. powerful bass note) a loud, heart stopping "CA-RACKKK!" would eminate from the speakers.

On other occasions at a moderately high level, it would "wink out" for a few seconds.

Gotta love that NAD sofy clipping feature!

When I went to a Rotel RB-991, (300 wpc @ 4 ohms) the problems disappeared.

Also, panars are VERY placment sensitive. You could spend a few weeks just moving them an inch this eay, then an inch that way, toeingthem in a little more...

Before jumping in with both feet into the planar sound, try their little MMG's, which come with a trial period and money back guarantee if you don't like 'em or simply want to trade up to the bigger ones.

(Oh, if only women come with such a guarantee)

That way, you can get a taste of planar and decide how far you want to go to obtain it. You may never want to go back to box speakers again, at least willingly.

FWIW, the little MMG's don't suck, either. Could use a little more low end, though.

 

[Markw]

Oops! Make that "Flight of the Cosmic Hippo"

Doh!

 

[Tonto Yoder]

Maggie clarification???

The littlest Maggies are available factory direct--
"Because of this success and the economy that comes from manufacturing large numbers of speakers, the Magneplanar MMG at $550 pair is affordable and available to everyone. Order directly from Magnepan by calling 1-800-474-1646. Other larger, more expensive models are available through a small nationwide network of specialty audio dealers.
We know you may have doubts about an entirely new way of reproducing sound. If you are like most of us, a completely new idea will intrigue you as well as raise questions ... how can a speaker only 3/4 inch thick possibly work ... is there a downside to this approach?

To answer these questions and many more, the Magnepan 60 day satisfaction guarantee is a chance for you to experience ... first hand... what this new technology can do for your audio/video system ... in your home ... at your leisure."

I've never heard feedback as to Maggie's trade-in policy--I realize they can't give full credit if the dog has chewed the grill & peed on the speaker, but don't know if they're really nit-picky or not.

 

[michael w]

Hi Beatle Fred,

I've been a Maggie user /owner since 1985 and currently have a pair of 1.6s, driven by various SS and tube electronics.

Over at the Stereophile Archives they have reviews of two popular Magnepan models, the 3.6 three way ribbon hybrid and the two way 1.6 with Quasi-Ribbon tweeter.

Of the 3.6, test results show basically a 4 ohm impedance with a slight peak at 1.6kHz, due to the ribbon/midrange crossover and a minimum of 3.3 ohms.

The smaller 1.6 showed a flat impedance akin to a 4.5 ohm resister, about as flat as you can get.

Both speakers should pose no problem to any amplifier capable of driving a 4 ohm load, albeit the more power and current you have the better the result.



About the Infinity Renaissance 90;

My "conventional" comment related to it's box type construction when compared to the Maggie open panel design.

Please do not misinterpret that to include the sound of the system, which I did not comment on.

Yes the EMIT/EMIMs are planar drivers.
Pretty good ones too but still mounted in a box, hence the 'conventional" tag.

I've only heard the Ren 90 very briefly but it was light years ahead of the infamous Kappa 9. Better designed , better built and much better sounding.

As you said an extremely elegant cabinet, coupled with exotic drivers and most aptly named, especially after the mixed critical reception to the Kappa series.

Does Infinity still offer support for these models ?



cheers

 

[BeatleFred]

Hi Michael:

Thanks for the reply. When the Ren 90's and Ren 80's were made in the early 90's, Infinity was still run by part founding owner, Cary Christie. I have a January 1995 Stereophile magazine that has a good interview with him and also well-known other part owner, Arnie Nudall. That issue also has a review of the Infinity Epsilon - the model that replaced the Ren 90 and sold for a cool $10,000/pair approximately. Its a much more complex speaker with servo controlled woofers requiring enormous amplification. I think in this regard, the Ren 90's are the best buy you can make- for the superb quality of construction and sound they offer, yet they arent super demanding in terms of the amp you need to connect then to although some decent power is certainly a good idea. From the late 90's on, Infinity went fully under the ownership of Harman. And no longer do they use the EMIT/EMIM design. Floyd Toole now is in charge of designing their speaker models. Parts still available to order for the Ren's except the EMIM midrange- the few left sold for $340 ea. They might in the future have just the diaphragm available for it and should be less $$. There is a website that has the EMIT for a quarter of the price it costs to get them from Infinity/HK so I obtained a few backups recently. But so far all the drivers have been working 100% on mine and they should continue like that for a long time to come.

 

[BeatleFred]

Oh - as for the Magnepans- well if thats so, I dont see why the guy on the Yahoo Sansui Group & Asylum site is having problems with his 160W G-9000 driving them.

 

[michael w]

Hi BF,

I don't know anything about the Sansui G-9000 so can only speculate on why it won't drive the guy's Maggies.

Is it a high current design ?

Is it designed for driving 4 ohm loads ?

Maybe the G-9000's 160 watts are ficticious ?

Maybe the amp or speakers are faulty ?

So many Q's.....


Regards

 

[Small Cars]

Maggies and Tubes

I have been listening to a Maggie/tube combination for years. I'm delighted. Maggies provide me with the clarity, imaging, and overall realism that I find most speakers don't deliver. I use a pair of Magnapan 1.5 speakers with a McIntosh 240 power amp. I also use a Hsu (powered) subwoofer. Maggie's do not always deliver the last word in bass, and yes, an amplifier can be taxed to deliver high sound levels from Maggies. However, with some patience, one can achieve remarkably satisfying results.

My amplifier is a vintage unit. There are several good values in comtemporary tube amps that might be good choices for you, should you decide to go with Maggies. Antique Sound Labs (among others) offer some reasonably priced power amps worth considering. See: http://www.divertech.com/antiquesl.html. The AQ-1001 might be a good choice, if you want an integrated amplifier. A pair of AQ1008 monoblocs would certainly have plenty of power, if you're willing to take the separate pre-amp/power amp route. Check Jolida as well.

I've heard that Maggie owners tend to stay with Maggie's. I can't tell if that's true, statistically, but I'm very satisfied and I listen to a lot of music. In fact, I've listened to music via the Maggie's with musical score in hand. I find the Maggie's can reveal details that in a fashion other speakers don't seem to approach.

Good luck, whatever you decide to do.

 

[Thatch_Ear]

Chris,
Like yourself I am on a tight budget. The EMITs which are planar ribbon tweeters that were used in Infinitys speaker were designed by a guy named Janzen. He later started his own company and made electrostatic panneled speakers for going 1KHz and up. Mated with a pair of 15" woofs these are very nice. I bought a pair of the 2 panneled ones on Ebay for $120 and have them plugged into and driven by a Fisher tube amp. They are great for voicing. They are great for music. I use mine as part of the center channel for HT as they sit easily on top of the TV and since they do not use magnets require no shielding.