Tubes and system synergy

Slippers,

I repeat single ended triodes were never designed for high output. For more speed I suppose you could add a two stroke engine to a mountain bike but wouldn't that be defeating it's purpose? For anything other than HE FR drivers SETs wouldn't be my amp of choice. I listened to my SETs driving huge Klipsch speakers and wasn't bowled over like I am with the 4 inch Fostex single drivers.
 
Poultry....you know I have great respect for your opinions, but I guess I can't agree with your opinion on Florian's system. He has one of the best I 've seen with SET amps driving those Hugh Apogee's in that huge room. Personally I think he has done it right. I will post pictures of his system here later.
 
I listened to my SETs driving huge Klipsch speakers and wasn't bowled over like I am with the 4 inch Fostex single drivers.

I had the same experience. I drove my Klipsch Fortes off of my 6B4Gs the first few months after I built it. The bass was very flabby sounding. I was able to track down an impedance chart for the Forte, low and behold, it had a huge impedance dip in the lower registers. Im sure they wouldve been better with 300Bs, but my 6B4Gs (cousin to 2A3), just couldnt hang with the dip in the Fortes. After that, I moved to larger Fostex drivers, and felt I was close to my goal. I really love the point-source sound, a large coaxial is a good compromise between a full range single driver and a 2-way. Thats what led me to the big coaxial Electro Voices...I dont think Ill ever part ways with them.
 
I had the same experience. I drove my Klipsch Fortes off of my 6B4Gs the first few months after I built it. The bass was very flabby sounding. I was able to track down an impedance chart for the Forte, low and behold, it had a huge impedance dip in the lower registers. Im sure they wouldve been better with 300Bs, but my 6B4Gs (cousin to 2A3), just couldnt hang with the dip in the Fortes. After that, I moved to larger Fostex drivers, and felt I was close to my goal. I really love the point-source sound, a large coaxial is a good compromise between a full range single driver and a 2-way. Thats what led me to the big coaxial Electro Voices...I dont think Ill ever part ways with them.

Bob great analogy btw - the whole first date thing. Well let me add, it never has to end.... haha.

Hey Bob I just noticed that my current setup - pictured a couple pages ago - is more or less like yours. Man I am really enjoying it!! You have no pre either, do you have to add any resistance to the Squeezebox or DAC? Mine has lots of headroom, just great.

Anyhow cheers to your system fella, its a top shelf chain.
 
Bob great analogy btw - the whole first date thing. Well let me add, it never has to end.... haha.

Hey Bob I just noticed that my current setup - pictured a couple pages ago - is more or less like yours. Man I am really enjoying it!! You have no pre either, do you have to add any resistance to the Squeezebox or DAC? Mine has lots of headroom, just great.

Anyhow cheers to your system fella, its a top shelf chain.

Thanks for the comments :). No resistance added between any components. Im just running my Benchmark straight to my amp, using the attenuator on the DAC. Nice, simple, and sounds excellent :yes:
 
I'd like to ask some questions. Bear with me. First attempt at using quotes.

1. I stated this in my post:
I will say, however, that chasing a flea powered amp and speakers that will respond to a flea powered amp are something I am not interested in doing. Basically it's because it would mean changing out my whole system, starting with pursuing highly efficient speakers and I'm happy with my speakers.

What I was saying is that doing SET right likely requires a full system change-out from the amp on out to the speakers. Is that correct?

2. If so, do speaker cables become more important?

3. Are we talking about a lifestyle decision to a certain extent? I've got a house full of kids coming and going and you can hear the dishwasher or fridge compressor kicking on and off while listening to my reference system. Are we talking about the kind of difference that requires a very silent room noise floor for that low level detail?

4. I respect that there are SET advocates and all that, and I'm not faulting your choices, but are you limiting yourselves to certain kinds of music listening when going with such a low power system such as this?
If no, please explain.
If yes, are you keeping other systems that do that other music well?
 
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Pops...how's that DAC? I think the name is new to me.

The DAC is excellent, at least for my tastes. Its a non over sampling DAC. The latest incarnation is the Chameleon. The Chameleon basically expands on my model with double the chips and a seperate PSU. These were mods being done, and Valab caught on and used them on their production unit.

NOS topology isn't for everyone, but keep in mind that companies as prolific as Zanden use it.

A review... http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/teradak/chameleon.html

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What I was saying is that doing SET right likely requires a full system change-out from the amp on out to the speakers. Is that correct?

Somewhat. You can run efficient speakers from more powerful amps, but not vice versa. I went backwards for SET. The general rule of thumb in audio is to buy a pair of speakers, then match an amp to it. I started with the amp, then on to the speakers.

2. If so, do speaker cables become more important?

As a non-believer in cables (as long as theyre reasonable quality, theyre fine in my book), I cant really answer that. I use 20AWG solid core intercom wire from my amp to speakers, its definitely budget-friendly and works...for me.

3. Are we talking about a lifestyle decision to a certain extent? I've got a house full of kids coming and going and you can hear the dishwasher or fridge compressor kicking on and off while listening to my reference system. Are we talking about the kind of difference that requires a very silent room noise floor?

Its all in what you make it. My primary listening environment is in an unfinished basement, sans carpeting, which is about as bad as one can get. I have a noisy furnace at one end, and a stand-up freezer that will sag the mains temporarily when the compressor kicks in. Despite everything going against my system, I dont plan on changing to anything with more "oomph"

4. I respect that there are SET advocates and all that, and I'm not faulting your choices, but are you limiting yourselves to certain kinds of music listening when going with such a low power system such as this?
If no, please explain.
If yes, are you keeping other systems that do that other music well?

This will depend on how all of your components work together in unison. I listen to primarily electronica and rock, generally a no-no as far as many SET enthusiasts are concerned. Many out there think theyre only good for jazz, vocals, or "little girl with guitar" music. I havent found that to be the case...just my experience anyway.
 
What I was saying is that doing SET right likely requires a full system change-out from the amp on out to the speakers. Is that correct?

Yes and no. Speakers are really an issue of taste, however high efficiency speakers will respond better to a SET amp. Look at the post of my pics, BadAssBob has the same set up. Amp, speakers and then the sources of your choice.

audiodon said:
2. If so, do speaker cables become more important?

Y'know, most guys just use solid core copper wire from a hardware store. Again, this is a matter of your own tastes and philosophies but there are no hard rules.

audiodon said:
3. Are we talking about a lifestyle decision to a certain extent? I've got a house full of kids coming and going and you can hear the dishwasher or fridge compressor kicking on and off while listening to my reference system. Are we talking about the kind of difference that requires a very silent room noise floor for that low level detail?

Absolutely not. I have 3 young kids all 6 and under. Hot tubes are a ssafety hazard, nothing that a cage can't fix (for the tubes not the kids). :smoke:


4. I respect that there are SET advocates and all that, and I'm not faulting your choices, but are you limiting yourselves to certain kinds of music listening when going with such a low power system such as this?
If no, please explain.
If yes, are you keeping other systems that do that other music well?

Generally speaking...no. However its a situational question as some speaker/amp combos will be faster than others, more/less detailed, etc, etc. I personally isten to majority jazz, soul, r&b, rock, blues and hip hop. They all sound exceptional. The better the recording, the closer to the floor your jaw will drop.

Much like poultygeists quote, once I finished my system, I never looked back. I have been happily off of the merry go round for the better part of 2 years now. I NEVER think about gear anymore, just listening to tunes and buying great albums as I can afford them.

I wouldn't recommend droppping everything for a SET system, but consider it as an alternative to what you have now. I still have a full SS system in my family room, but my SET amp is my pride and joy. I am listening to Sonny Red right now and let me tell ya, those mids are up front and center...just breathtaking. Here's a point I am adament about, mids are the be all end all of a system. If your amp can't do them right, then who cares about anything else. They make up the majority of our hearing's range, and the majority of where music is played and sang at. Who cares about annoying, thumping bass... or screeching dog whistle highs.... sure they are important and comprise a part of the whole, but its the mids you are hearing for the most part. This is where a SET amp simply dominates, and the reason they are hard to walk away from.
 
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^^^

Although not SET, this 15wpc amp has SET like qualities.

http://www.questforsound.com/amps/amps_sq84-V2.htm

I recently listened to it with Omega Elanco Super 6s with a few disks of my own regular music. I was blown away at what I was hearing.

You can see what I run in my signature as a main setup so I am used to big heavy high powered amps and speakers as big a s person but this little amp and small speakers filled the room with great sound.

It turns out that I already own a pair of 92db JM Labs speakers that would most likely pair up nicely with an amp like above.

I know this thread is 5 pages in and off track a bit from the OP but I wanted to chime in on tubes and synergy from what I just experienced.

When I got the system in my sig, the amp was not working and and the pre amp was tubed all wrong with 12AX&s in all 4 slots where 2 were supposed to be 12AU7s. I put some Sovtek AX7s in and bought some inexpensive JJ Tesla AUs. The Amp was repaired and a set of Electro Harmonix 6DJ8s were put in.

Several months ago I contacted Kevin Hayes, owner of VAC and had him supply me with 2 sets of tubes for my pre, which are what they use in new units now. That made a really nice difference in the overall setup but I still thought the amp was lacking.

I nice gentleman from here sent me a little care package of tubes to try a few weeks ago. He sent me a set of NOS EZ81 Rectifiers that I swapped in for the original Counterpoint ones. He also sent me some RCA 6CG7/6FQ7 Cleartops from the 60s.

Even though they were used and not as strong as a new pair, they really woke the amp up as well as my Dynaudio 82s like never before. I then bought a brand new matched set of NOS cleartops that measure as new.

The synergy is really nice and I am looking forward to seeing how the Clearfields sound when I swap them back in.
 
As a non-believer in cables (as long as theyre reasonable quality, theyre fine in my book), I cant really answer that. I use 20AWG solid core intercom wire from my amp to speakers, its definitely budget-friendly and works...for me.

poppachubby said:
Y'know, most guys just use solid core copper wire from a hardware store. Again, this is a matter of your own tastes and philosophies but there are no hard rules.
Damn...busted! :lmao:

poppachubby said:
The better the recording, the closer to the floor your jaw will drop.
Oh hell yes! :yes:
 
The most efficient speakers in the house are 90 dB. I might get the opportunity to build a SET kit over the winter . . . good for about 8 watts I believe.

I'm taking it in, but I like my push-pull and my midrange and I know that anyone can accomplish that midrange magic sound you're discussing without SET.
Set is one way to get there though.

At this point, I'll just keep my mind open until I have some personal experience, though someone I respect said SET's a lot like chasing the perfect MC cartridge, phono stage and cartridge. I don't go there either, yet I accomplish a decent sound with my humble setup.
 
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^^^

The synergy is really nice and I am looking forward to seeing how the Clearfields sound when I swap them back in.

Hey Hyfi!! Still have the VAC huh? Its hard to leave behind a great piece of tube gear isn't it?

I bet those Dyn's just sing. I am looking at buying Frenchmon's Rotel amp, I think it's the same model as yours... 130wpc right?
 
The most efficient speakers in the house are 90 dB. I might get the opportunity to build a SET kit over the winter . . . good for about 8 watts I believe.

I'm taking it in, but I like my push-pull and my midrange and you can accomplish that sound you're discussing without SET.
At this point, I'll just keep my mind open until I have some experience, though someone I respect said SET's a lot like chasing the perfect MC cartridge, phono stage and cartridge.

You can come close to the SET sound with PP topology, but youll lose some of the sweetness. One comment I always get about my system, its as if you can reach your hand out and touch the notes. Ive never met a PP amp that could do that, but then again, my only PP experiences come from Chinese amps targeted at the mass-market. One day I will use or build a nice PP unit. Until then, I can only go by previous experiences. Its hard to describe the SET sound, you really have to hear it to make a proper judgement. I could tell you coffee tastes best with 2 creams and 2 sugars, but you might like it black ;).
 
A system like this using SET powered full range single drivers and solid state powered open baffle bass full rangers will play any type of music.

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I don't have a standalone Rotel amp. I have a 1052 integrated that I drive my JMs with..

As per the VAC, the only thing that sucks is no remote volume...I have to adjust 2 knobs, 1 for each channel since it is a true dual mono pre.

The Danes are sounding the best they ever have right now with all the new and correct tubes. Lots of bass and mids. The highs are still rolled off a bit but unbelievable what changing the tubes in the amp have done for me.

Good to see you around PC.
 
You can come close to the SET sound with PP topology, but youll lose some of the sweetness. One comment I always get about my system, its as if you can reach your hand out and touch the notes. Ive never met a PP amp that could do that, but then again, my only PP experiences come from Chinese amps targeted at the mass-market. Its hard to describe the SET sound, you really have to hear it to make a proper judgement. I could tell you coffee tastes best with 2 creams and 2 sugars, but you might like it black ;).

The Sound Quest amp I linked above is Push Pull but sounds very SET like.
 
Cables...

OK Bob... totally OT but here are a couple of my solid core DIY cables. I had about 4 versions, some with insulation, some naked, some terminated, some without. You get the idea....



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I don't have a standalone Rotel amp. I have a 1052 integrated that I drive my JMs with..

As per the VAC, the only thing that sucks is no remote volume...I have to adjust 2 knobs, 1 for each channel since it is a true dual mono pre.

The Danes are sounding the best they ever have right now with all the new and correct tubes. Lots of bass and mids. The highs are still rolled off a bit but unbelievable what changing the tubes in the amp have done for me.

Good to see you around PC.

Oh. I was looking at your sig. I am looking at the 1072 Rotel amp. Yes good to see you too!
 
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