Tubes for C2500

analog addict said:
Another tube you may want to consider is the 7025, a low noise 12AX7 variant specifically engineered for phono sections. You might also want to keep your eyes open for other black plate variants. I prefer the Raytheon over the RCAs, at least in my phono pre amp.
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I asked Jim McShane about the 7025 he said they are good tube but no longer in production, so I can keep an eye out for those.

Yesterday I cut the hole in the shelf above the c2500. It worked out great although quite a feat considering it is a fixed shelf and all the other equipment. My plan is to not put the screws to the cover in and lift it off and remove the unused dac above it and swap out the tubes. I see no reason to try to put the screws back in.

Just in time my sovtek's should get here today, see how it goes. I know there is a burn in time 40-50 hours before they sound good. Is there a tube burn-in device? I did a quick google and got nothing. Something just to power it it up for couple of days. As it is that all I'm going to do with the 2500 when I plug them in to the MC phono stage other than 1 or 2 records just to verify that they work. I'm not going to waste 50 hours on my cartridge just to burn in a tube. Or I could put them in the main stage and play CD's through it.
 
I have always been against rolling tubes unless you have the proper test equipment to verify that you haven't lulled your self into believing distorted sound is what you prefer, in either warm and alluring on one extreme or or edgy and unrealistically clear on the other. But as I think things over, I guess it'a like choosing tires for vehicle. As long as you stay with the same size, and rating, you are safe, most of the time. Then you get to choose a fast responsive drive, that can be stiff, bumpy, and noisy with the Toyo 315 R 22.5 tire. The much smoother ride , that is quieter, of the Michelin XZA2. Maybe you want something more in the middle with either the Continental or Bridgestone. To save a buck there are always the oriental brands. But what ever happens stay away from the Firestones. So like tires , tubes , have their personalities, and as long as you understand whats happening and that you are not in danger of damaging your hearing, then rolling tubes, like tires, is OK. Personally, I prefer Michelin tires. But you have to watch them like a hawk, and keep them covered, as they don't like continual sun exposure in areas with high air pollution in dry climates. Seems their compound uses more natural rubber and is susceptible to premature cracking. So when selecting tubes, try to find the parameters that are making a difference and understand how they apply to your pre-amp. Look on the bright side. When I replace 8 tires its $6400 plus tax and installation, tubes fortunately aren't such an investment. But then throwing up your hands in dismay and buying a C-500 SS certainly would be. Its a great piece, even in the tube version.
 
twiiii said:
I have always been against rolling tubes unless you have the proper test equipment to verify that you haven't lulled your self into believing distorted sound is what you prefer, in either warm and alluring on one extreme or or edgy and unrealistically clear on the other. But as I think things over, I guess it'a like choosing tires for vehicle. As long as you stay with the same size, and rating, you are safe, most of the time. Then you get to choose a fast responsive drive, that can be stiff, bumpy, and noisy with the Toyo 315 R 22.5 tire. The much smoother ride , that is quieter, of the Michelin XZA2. Maybe you want something more in the middle with either the Continental or Bridgestone. To save a buck there are always the oriental brands. But what ever happens stay away from the Firestones. So like tires , tubes , have their personalities, and as long as you understand whats happening and that you are not in danger of damaging your hearing, then rolling tubes, like tires, is OK. Personally, I prefer Michelin tires. But you have to watch them like a hawk, and keep them covered, as they don't like continual sun exposure in areas with high air pollution in dry climates. Seems their compound uses more natural rubber and is susceptible to premature cracking. So when selecting tubes, try to find the parameters that are making a difference and understand how they apply to your pre-amp. Look on the bright side. When I replace 8 tires its $6400 plus tax and installation, tubes fortunately aren't such an investment. But then throwing up your hands in dismay and buying a C-500 SS certainly would be. Its a great piece, even in the tube version.
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To each his own. Personally I think yours is a bad analogy. I think it could be a bad thing if you do it often enough that break something outside of that enjoy.
Something Steve Hoffman posted on his forum made it all click. He said something to the effect of, When you roll tubes it's not that one sounds better on any particular system or set of ears. It more that it sounds different and it's good way to sparkle up how your music sounds and what the matter with that.

So far I'm completely happy the sovtek cduarte suggested sound pretty good are they better that the gold lion's probably not but they might be to soon to tell. I like the new sound though. Can't wait till next week when I get the RCA black plates. I got 4 of them be interesting what it does in the MC phono stage compared to the sovtek's.

I gave up on my idea of a different device to burn in the tubes. I just disabled the auto shut-off on the McIntosh.
 
Remember to leave the screws out of the cover because once you start this tube rolling thing it is hard to stop.

Of all I've used I like the Telefunkens, the Amperex, Tung-Sol, and now I am on a Sylvania kick.
 
chuckworkb said:
Remember to leave the screws out of the cover because once you start this tube rolling thing it is hard to stop.

Of all I've used I like the Telefunkens, the Amperex, Tung-Sol, and now I am on a Sylvania kick.
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I'm already there. I just rolled the MC phono back from the black plate's to the Sovtek's. I did it through the 6' X 12" hole I cut above the C2500.

So far my experience has been interesting. I would say I like the RCA black plates as I'm listing I had them in both the MC and main stages but if I listen to a 32/96 needle drop on cans I can't say there is any improvement. I'll have to give it some more time.
So for now I'm leaving it like this the way cduarte suggested.
 
Lets see you need tubes when it snows, tubes when it rains , tubes when the track is clean, tubes, when the track has finally been coated with rubber, you might need tubes with a hard compound for one type a sound and tubes with a soft compound for another. You might want tubes with a inner liner so when you blow a tube it won't damage other components. It would be nice to have knock off hubs rather than multi pin sockets. Maybe like NASCAR approving 4 lug nuts rather rather than 5 you can figure how to remove a pin or two to make the tube change faster. Bet there are almost as many variables to tamper with making a tire as there is for a 12AXZ.

Hope none are offended by all this unskilled hassling. I could continue by recommending swapping tweeters, or speaker types for different music types. I would think having a MEN 220 and programming 6 different subtle curve changes in frequency response would be as or more satisfactory. A Db hear or a Db there can make quite a difference.
 
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Twiii. Love the comment actually. I got really into rolling with the tubes in the beginning of getting tube gear then got tired of it and haven't changed many tubes in years. But it's fun to tinker with tubes. Trying to find and then try different varieties. Much like people who sit there and swish and swirl wine talking about notes of tobacco leather and blackberries. Very subjective.

It's all good. Unless people start talking about nuances of power cords and fuses and wooden blocks that they put over and under equipment. That's where I draw the line!
 
onedrop78 said:
Lets see you need tubes when it snows, tubes when it rains , tubes when the track is clean, tubes, when the track has finally been coated with rubber, you might need tubes with a hard compound for one type a sound and tubes with a soft compound for another. You might want tubes with a inner liner so when you blow a tube it won't damage other components. It would be nice to have knock off hubs rather than multi pin sockets. Maybe like NASCAR approving 4 lug nuts rather rather than 5 you can figure how to remove a pin or two to make the tube change faster. Bet there are almost as many variables to tamper with making a tire as there is for a 12AXZ.

Hope none are offended by all this unskilled hassling. I could continue by recommending swapping tweeters, or speaker types for different music types. I would think having a MEN 220 and programming 6 different subtle curve changes in frequency response would be as or more satisfactory. A Db hear or a Db there can make quite a difference.
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I get that as far as you are concerned it's not worth it to roll tubes. I was looking at your avatar very nice system . I guess if I had your setup tube rolling would be far to difficult and would never even try.
 
So after listening to this tube configuration I'm pretty happy but it's not like it sounds bad with any of the tubes I have used this far.
It's just subtle differences that may sound better on a given day. So I think I see what Steve Hoffman means.

So I may keep trying different tubes. What would be the main difference in sound between 14mm and 17mm versions of the tubes? If one can even say. It may be just a matter of trying each and decide for yourself.

Something I'm not clear on is when I am recording needle drops is the signal output influenced by both the MC and Mains or just the MC stage? So far the needle drops sound for the most part the same.
 
twiiii said:
Lets see you need tubes when it snows, tubes when it rains , tubes when the track is clean, tubes, when the track.... I could continue by recommending swapping tweeters, or speaker types for different music types..
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How about a song for that.. like Roll Out The Barrel. RoF

{ snip }
​
Sorry couldn't resist (will probably have to delete the video).

I'd not recommend changing tubes anywhere near so frequently, but it's your amp.

If it ain't broke, don't mess with it. :naughty:
 
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my brother in law and I tried the gold lion reissue 12ax7s back to back with the sovtek 12ax7lps and we both liked the sovteks better in his C2500. For the price differential, to us it's a no brainer. Again, YMMV... and as always, we find tube rolling to be an enjoyable experience.
 
I agree the sovtek's sound at least equal to the Gold Lions if not better. Both the Sovtek's and the RCA black plates were cheaper than the reissue GLs.
 
Just an update. I'm really happy with this tube configuration. I also like the Sovtek's in the mc phono stage. I believe that it took some hours for it to settle in and the sound really sweetened up.

Another issue / observation I bricked the unit trying to update the firmware and had to quickly replace the McIntosh tubes before returning it to the dealer to get it reset. I found it interesting how much hotter the Sovtek's are compared to the RCAs
 
You guys are talking about the Sovtek 12AX7-LPS?

I tried the other Sovtek ones and was far from been impressed but not in the C2500.

I was impressed by the TungSol 12AX7, which is my favorite new 12ax7 tubes.

The Gold lions are good but not as exceptional like their price.

 
novice question here, but in terms of the tubes in the C2500, there are 2 MM tubes, 2 MC, and 2 Main. It looks as though this is the case looking at the diagram on the glass over the tubes, but does the signal coming in from my MM turntable go through those tubes first and then again through the main tubes? wondering about just replacing 2 tubes as I never use the MC (so doesn't seem worth replacing those) and wondering wether I should do try the MM or the main and what difference it would make doing 1 or the other if that makes sense?
 
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