Tubes for Everyman!

I'd look hard at the 300B Bottlehead Paramount mono blocks with Magnequest iron listed for $1795 on the bay. The 300B SET at 9 watts should be enough for your speakers. The 300B tubes in that amp alone cost close to $500! This one like all Bottleheads is hand built with all point to point wiring. You won't do better for that price. I absolutely love my 3 watt Bottlehead 2a3 mono blocks and would love to own the 300B.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Bottlehead-...791697?hash=item43ed954591:g:f7YAAOSw4hdXH4Xm
 
RGA said:
I'd still try for the best SET amp you can afford and try it before you settle on push pull. The latter is okay on a budget but a good SET can be on another plain. Even a basic Kit One is difficult to better by push pull tube amps. Off the cuff I can't think of a single one. BUT you need easy to drive speakers - the biggest Achilles heel of most SET amps. I'm not sure ProAc is that easy to drive and higher power SETs tend to cost big. ProAc is usually sub 90dB sensitive - if they have an easy impedance they still could be fine - have you seen the min impedance?
Click to expand...

I have not. I suppose I could send ProAc an email asking them for their opinion.

Some of the more recent ProAc models in Stereophile measure with an impedance that is mainly above 8, but drops below 8 (around 7) in the lower midrange. I know that they are made with tubes in mind, but I think that could be push/pull and not SET. As you say, the sensitivity is usually around 88 or so (mine is rated 88.5), so it's not likely ProAc makes their speakers expecting people to use a 3 watt amp with them. Unlike some models where ProAc recommends a higher wattage amp, mine has a recommended range beginning at 15 watts.

There is also Finale Audio in my area. That could also be a possibility.

Still have my pair of AN AX-Two speakers as well. They would probably be a bit more SET friendly but they are only 90dB, so not much higher than the 118.

Poultrygeist said:
I'd look hard at the 300B Bottlehead Paramount mono blocks with Magnequest iron listed for $1795 on the bay. The 300B SET at 9 watts should be enough for your speakers. The 300B tubes in that amp alone cost close to $500! This one like all Bottleheads is hand built with all point to point wiring. You won't do better for that price. I absolutely love my 3 watt Bottlehead 2a3 mono blocks and would love to own the 300B.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Bottlehead-...791697?hash=item43ed954591:g:f7YAAOSw4hdXH4Xm
Click to expand...

Wow, very nice. Thanks for the suggestion. I'm not ready to make a move now though (plus I think I'd prefer an integrated) so I'll have to pass on this option.
 
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A 300B will drive the 88.5 dbs ProAcs with ease. Problem is if you go with the big bottle direct heated triodes you'll probably want to upgrade your speakers.

In Japan the 300B is called "the king of tubes".

-107185920.jpg
 
Upgrade? I don't know...the 118 pretty much ticks all the boxes for me and I'm kind of building this system around them. Had ProAc's before, loved them, sold them. Had to buy ProAc's again when I regretted it. I think I just like their sound. Now I want to get the amplification dialed in to precisely what I want long-term and I think I'll be set. But I guess with audio you never know.

I suppose I'll just have to try and see. I don't mind picking up the Cary on the used market and if it doesn't have enough juice then sell it for about what I paid. I like the amp because it only uses 2 300B tubes (tube changes not cheap but not that bad), it has a remote, and at 15 watts it probably has enough juice to drive the 118 to a high SPL (small room). A 35 watt push/pull would be a safe bet and would sound great, of that I'd have no doubt...only thing is I'd be wondering about what a class A SET would sound like.

My 30-wpc Audio Space tube amp is actually significantly louder than my 60-wpc Bryston ss, and also has a bit of a raw quality that sounds more like live music. Not really what I would have expected from the two, but both presentations are very enjoyable.

Art, curious if you have any news on the tube amp front? You started this thread and were going to explore that option, then had to put on the brakes.
 
No, Dan, I am not moving forward yet. I still have some interest in the Raven, Prima Luna and LM products. Right now I am settling the speaker issue. I just ordered a pair of ATC SCM 11 v2 speakers to try out. That will help me settle the amp questions.
 
An SET amp will often act as a sub-optimal tone control. Which means you have no idea how it's going to sound until you hook it up. If there is an impedance dip at frequency X, there will be a change in the speakers response. A huge change you can't predict without knowing the exact curve of the speaker impedance.

I get the whole thing....and bowing to the golden glow of a 300B. Don't forget I'm Mr. Tube. I know this shit. If you have the money to try it and get out, go ahead. But these same guys in an effort to make an amp that is clearly handicapped work will hook up the worst friggin' speakers in the world to them. Just so they can have a speaker with a 16 ohm impedance and 96dB sensitivity. Read the reviews. Like these Lowther drivers that don't have tweeters. Then to make their point they will say things like "Oh it's so liquid and smooth". Of course it's smooth. Lowthers don't have true top end extension. And you have no tweeter. Let me save you some time and trouble. If you want to get the SET experience with Lowthers, but not lose money...just unhook the tweeters in your system.

I own four SET amps in my own personal collection. But they are just for fun. If I was not bucks up enough to have two amps, or to try it and go on to something else I wouldn't get one in a heartbeat. Why would you ever choose an amp that is so limiting? And for those who think it's technically better, Scott Franklin did an excellent paper on push-pull vs single ended for Stereophile if you search.


The Cary 300SEI has 8.3 watts of power at 10% THD at the 8ohm tap. Read that? 10%. Sure they liked it with one speaker, but the next speaker it will vary so much you have no idea how it will sound. This is from Stereophile:

A joke?
I could be kind and use the phrase "less than ideal" to describe the 300SEI's technical performance. But I'll tell it like it is: this amplifier measures so poorly it's a joke. The large (more than 4dB) frequency-response aberrations when driving a reactive load, ridiculously high output impedance (more than 4 ohms), ultrahigh distortion levels, and severely limited output power are all contrary to what we consider good technical performance.
I can easily imagine the non-listening audio-engineering community looking at these measurement results and laughing at audiophiles who must "like the sound of distortion." But after close critical scrutiny—both in the listening room and the test lab—I'm convinced that the 300SEI doesn't harm the signal in some of the ways push-pull amplifiers do, and that what the 300SEI does right is beyond the ability of today's traditional measurements to quantify. Further, I didn't enjoy the 300SEI so much musically merely because it introduced frequency-response deviations and added lots of low-order harmonic distortion. Instead, the 300SEI's fundamental musical rightness overcame its limitations.—Robert Harley

Now having said that, I own one!!! But I look at it. It's cute and fun. I turn it on once a year. Guys it's cool to do this if you face reality and say it's fun. But to say it's high fidelity, it's just not so.
 
onehifiguy said:
I would go with Rogue Audio for no particular reason other than they are made in the USA. Just my 2 cent's worth!!
Click to expand...
Assembled in the USA, sure. But how about the tubes, caps, power transformers, pots, etc.? Most likely Asia (possibly former Soviet bloc for tubes).
 
And if you want to try Rogue gear there is plenty of it on the used marketplace so no need to by new and lose your aXX. Granted Mark and his people are "good guys" and their factory is a short drive from my wife's family home, but I would'nt buy new just to hear it. From what I have read and from people I know who have owned it it's sound profile is much like ARC and BAT. If you own it and "love" it all is good, but there are alway plenty of used Cronus Magnums to choose from to take a test drive.

Art are the ATC's a possible replacement for the Harbeth?
 
Fusion said:
I have not. I suppose I could send ProAc an email asking them for their opinion.

Some of the more recent ProAc models in Stereophile measure with an impedance that is mainly above 8, but drops below 8 (around 7) in the lower midrange. I know that they are made with tubes in mind, but I think that could be push/pull and not SET. As you say, the sensitivity is usually around 88 or so (mine is rated 88.5), so it's not likely ProAc makes their speakers expecting people to use a 3 watt amp with them. Unlike some models where ProAc recommends a higher wattage amp, mine has a recommended range beginning at 15 watts.

There is also Finale Audio in my area. That could also be a possibility.

Still have my pair of AN AX-Two speakers as well. They would probably be a bit more SET friendly but they are only 90dB, so not much higher than the 118.

Wow, very nice. Thanks for the suggestion. I'm not ready to make a move now though (plus I think I'd prefer an integrated) so I'll have to pass on this option.
Click to expand...
The AX Two is more than happy with 7 watts because its impedance isn't all over the map.
If what you say about the ProAc's impedance is true then it will also be happy with 7 watts - their website says 15 but as is usually the case they probably publish a "safer" figure.

It comes down to the quality of the transformers as to how they will react to more difficult loads and cheaper amps user cheaper transformers and so it goes with this stuff.

While Kevin will debate this the fact is SET amps in SET systems sound a lot better than Push Pull amps for the same and often a lot more money in my experience. And you can't have it both ways - bringing up the technical measurements that PP may better a SET - well SS blows the doors off every single PP tube amp going utterly trounces PP Tubes - a Rotel Pre/Pro combo for $3k on measurements will flatten a PP tube amps at $30k. And I'm going to buy the poorer measuring PP tube amps in a heartbeat over the superior measuring but worse sounding SS gear. This applies to SET and PP however. There is far wider variance in the quality of SET amps however than SS. And yes SET amps mean you have less speaker choices (which is fine since most hard to drive speakers sound worse IME.

Of course I concede that this is subjective opinion. I don't hate PP amps by any stretch but to suggest that SET is merely a cute toy is also an opinion. Most SET owners didn't start with SET - they had PP tube amps first. And in general it's why when you see companies that make "both" push pull amps and SET amps - the SET amps are their top of the line products and the PP is entry level. Whether it is LM or Cary or AN or most other - they all make SET and PP but the stars are always the SET amps. Just like the stars at McIntosh are the tube amps and the SS are viewed as paper weights that look cool.

I only say try em if you can - it's not a must and the good SETs tend to cost more. Cheap SETs to me sound iffy. I also like the parallel SET amps like the Empress far more than the 300B Quests. I'm not a huge fan of the 300B - the sound is a little too Lady-Like" for me. I get their appeal but they're not for me. I like the Empress because it's double the power and has tremendous bass depth and grip. AN won't like me for saying it but I prefer the Empress to the well over double the price Meishu silver and Jinro 211 amps. But this is way out of budget at $7k for monoblocks - still second hand!!

Lastly what about the Sugden A21a. It's SET but solid State and has more oomph at 20 watts? Or First Watt. These beat up a number of tube amps IME as well. And without any tube hassles. The problem with my kit suggestion is that you're stuck with them - I can't imagine them having any real resale value.
 
seminole54 said:
And if you want to try Rogue gear there is plenty of it on the used marketplace so no need to by new and lose your aXX. Granted Mark and his people are "good guys" and their factory is a short drive from my wife's family home, but I would'nt buy new just to hear it. From what I have read and from people I know who have owned it it's sound profile is much like ARC and BAT. If you own it and "love" it all is good, but there are alway plenty of used Cronus Magnums to choose from to take a test drive.

Art are the ATC's a possible replacement for the Harbeth?
Click to expand...

I'm also curious, Art, if these are for your office or your main system? I have had my eye on those ATCs forever, and recently noticed that they were at Music Direct and thus easily attainable for a home demo. I'll be really curious about your thoughts. For now, I have decided to try the Salk Silk AT monitor with an amp from Raven Audio. Nervous and excited.
cheers!
 
mcanaday said:
I'm also curious, Art, if these are for your office or your main system? I have had my eye on those ATCs forever, and recently noticed that they were at Music Direct and thus easily attainable for a home demo. I'll be really curious about your thoughts. For now, I have decided to try the Salk Silk AT monitor with an amp from Raven Audio. Nervous and excited.
cheers!
Click to expand...

Congrats on the Salks!

I don't know where or if the ATC's will fit in, but they are worth a go.
 
I know how good SET amps sound, I just sold a 2A3. I loved the sound, but it just didn't have the headroom I like. That 2A3 needed some big Altecs, which I have no room for. I like me some power even though I don't listen at obscene decibel levels. That said, the Prologue Classic has a deceptively high amount of head room. This is a nice little piece of kit. But, if I ever go back to SET, it will at least be an 845 tube. As for speakers, I'm with Fusion on the ProAc 118's. I just got an opportunity to listen to a pair and I really like them. I think I am going to wait until fall to buy a new pair because I am really digging these Energy Veritas I have cooking at the moment.
 
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