Tubes or solid state...are tubes worth the extra money?

[havols]

With tubes you can actually learn something about audio and electronics. If you are a person that prefers to fix or make your own stuff, then tube audio is the way to go.

Exactly what happened to me. I use a lot of these SS and TUBE things. But it was with the tubes that I learned a bit of electronics. Of course, with help from AudioKarma. Today I am able to repair and upgrade my tubes on my own, and this is very rewarding. I love it. My first ones were SS (pioneer, sansui, fisher, marantz ..). I loved them, and I still love them. When I was 30, I decided to venture into tube things. And they are rare here in Brazil. I started with heathkit, stromberg, harman, scott (all mono), and also DYNA, Fisher, Realistic and Bell (all stereo). What can I say. It's what I like both, and each one has its place. But the tube has a different sound. The bass, trumpets and sax, piano, acoustic sounds, and other sounds that did not even exist when listening to the SS. Of course, capacitors and tubes make a lot of difference. But this is certainly an investment, not a simple cost. The tubes cause me a unique problem. After 3 hours listen music on tube stuffs, even being late for something, I can't turn off the sound, because it sounding very warm and pleasant.
Regards from Brazil

 

[primosounds]

Just yesterday, I repaired a Dynaco ST70 which was not amplifying in the left channel. So, I and the owner put the amp on my work bench we hooked it all up and ran a signal from my preamp, some nice Bob Marley. Yep left channel was out. So, hooked my meter and started testing. One of the first parts was the 0.1uf coupling cap on the triode section of the 7199. As soon as i touched a lead the sound came back to the left channel. Well that is encouraging. I checked the cap and it was ok. then i checked the plate resistor of the triode section of the 7199 and it tested open! I removed the 47k plate resistor and put in a new one and voile, the amp was playing perfectly again. The owner was very happy, to say the least!
He also had this malfunctioning power supply unit from an Oracle turn table. Well , i opened that box up and it was full of ICs and transistors. I looked at the circuit board and told the owner that i could not do anything with that unit, It was nearly 40 years old, and in all likelihood all the ICs and transistors are obsolete. And it is ironic that at around 60 years old the st70 unit was so easily repaired by finding a defective resistor and replacing it. So our technology has taken us light years ahead, but at the same time stranding us in the "Delta Quadrant" (star trek reference).

 

[c.coyle]

Rolex or Timex?
BMW or Kia?
Custom tailored or off-the-rack?
1st Class or Economy?
Waldorf Astoria or Motel 6?

 

[c.coyle]

With tubes you can actually learn something about audio and electronics. If you are a person that prefers to fix or make your own stuff, then tube audio is the way to go. My first audio purchase was a NAD receiver. Then less than a year later i acquired a Fisher 500C receiver. Once the 500 was installed the difference was overwhelmingly to me. I had very little emotional response to the music from the NAD but the 500 got me hooked. After that i started to buy tubes and more tube audio. Since i acquired more pieces i had to learn how to fix them. After much time reading, building, repairing, troubleshooting, i can now make my own amps with just the raw materials. It is much harder to do that with SS.

I usually don't reply to old posts, but yours is a curious one.

I've learned lots from working on solid state gear. I've built a solid state amp from parts, not a kit. The best amp I ever heard was solid state, but our ears and our brains are part of our systems.

You made your own tubes from just the raw materials? Where did you learn glass blowing?

Not everyone is you. Or me.

 

[primosounds]

You made your own tubes from just the raw materials? Where did you learn glass blowing?

Not everyone is you. Or me.

Well, Havols, dredged this one back up again. But it is a subject that is fascinating and as far as audio is concerned, a serious subject. His actual statement was, ".., i can now make my own amps with just the raw materials." Not exactly stating making tubes.
As far as making your own tubes there is a video on whotube that shows this guy making one from scratch. It is amazing that it actually worked pretty well.
I am not promoting tubes over solid state, as both are valid systems. And if someone had shown me how to build audio amps from transistors, i would probably be siding with you.

 

[GordonW]

Well, Havols, dredged this one back up again. But it is a subject that is fascinating and as far as audio is concerned, a serious subject. His actual statement was, ".., i can now make my own amps with just the raw materials." Not exactly stating making tubes.
As far as making your own tubes there is a video on whotube that shows this guy making one from scratch. It is amazing that it actually worked pretty well.
I am not promoting tubes over solid state, as both are valid systems. And if someone had shown me how to build audio amps from transistors, i would probably be siding with you.

I can easily buy replacement 60-year-old-design vacuum tubes.

I cannot easily buy replacement 60-year-old-design transistors. I can't reliably buy, usually, even 30-40-year-old-design transistors (many have gone obsolete and are no longer produced by anyone).

I like the prospect of being able to repair and retrofit my amp, decades from now- which I probably will be able to do, with tubes. To heck with "planned obsolescence"...

Regards,
Gordon.

 

[trinhsman]

I've been fortunate enough to hear the very best of tubes and SS. (VAC Statement amps, and Constellation Mono amps with Focal Grande Utopia's.) I can say both are spectacular, with the Constellation system sounding the best to my ears. However, all of this is way above my pay grade and I will never be able to own any of it. So I look for what I can afford and do as much research as possible to get the best bang for the buck. I've spent more than I should, but I think I have gotten a system that works for me. IMHO

 

[primosounds]

I can easily buy replacement 60-year-old-design vacuum tubes.

I cannot easily buy replacement 60-year-old-design transistors. I can't reliably buy, usually, even 30-40-year-old-design transistors (many have gone obsolete and are no longer produced by anyone).

I like the prospect of being able to repair and retrofit my amp, decades from now- which I probably will be able to do, with tubes. To heck with "planned obsolescence"...

Regards,
Gordon.

Exactly, see my post #82.

 

[maxhifi]

Just yesterday, I repaired a Dynaco ST70 which was not amplifying in the left channel. So, I and the owner put the amp on my work bench we hooked it all up and ran a signal from my preamp, some nice Bob Marley. Yep left channel was out. So, hooked my meter and started testing. One of the first parts was the 0.1uf coupling cap on the triode section of the 7199. As soon as i touched a lead the sound came back to the left channel. Well that is encouraging. I checked the cap and it was ok. then i checked the plate resistor of the triode section of the 7199 and it tested open! I removed the 47k plate resistor and put in a new one and voile, the amp was playing perfectly again. The owner was very happy, to say the least!
He also had this malfunctioning power supply unit from an Oracle turn table. Well , i opened that box up and it was full of ICs and transistors. I looked at the circuit board and told the owner that i could not do anything with that unit, It was nearly 40 years old, and in all likelihood all the ICs and transistors are obsolete. And it is ironic that at around 60 years old the st70 unit was so easily repaired by finding a defective resistor and replacing it. So our technology has taken us light years ahead, but at the same time stranding us in the "Delta Quadrant" (star trek reference).

Oracle has schematics on their website. They're all standard parts, no custom ICs or microcontrollers. Most transistors can be substituted with more up to date parts, and all transistors are way way cheaper than tubes, and last longer. You can fix this for sure, it's just harder than changing a resistor. I don't think it's really fair to the customer to write off something as nice as an Oracle, because you're not that comfy working on solid state gear. Reality is you could probably replace every single component in the oracle for less than the cost of a new tube set for the Dynaco.

I like solid state stuff too, for example, try an imagine a tube powered direct drive turntable!

 

[primosounds]

This PS was full of ics. I dunno what model it goes with but i believe it was an adjustable speed selector controller.
And don't get me wrong , i am not anti solid state. But ss is designed to be more limited life span than tube stuff, which is designed to be serviceable

 

[maxhifi]

This PS was full of ics. I dunno what model it goes with but i believe it was an adjustable speed selector controller.
And don't get me wrong , i am not anti solid state. But ss is designed to be more limited life span than tube stuff, which is designed to be serviceable

Yes, but those are all common logic ICs and op amps. Most likely the problem is bad electrolytic capacitors, which is a common problem in all vintage electronics.

The Oracle electronics are also something of a mess, the schematics I saw for the old stuff are hand drawn, with all the notes in French.

 

[primosounds]

Yes, but those are all common logic ICs and op amps. Most likely the problem is bad electrolytic capacitors, which is a common problem in all vintage electronics.

The Oracle electronics are also something of a mess, the schematics I saw for the old stuff are hand drawn, with all the notes in French.

max, if you want to fart with it, i can let my buddy know. He wants it repaired and he even has a part unit.

 

[maxhifi]

max, if you want to fart with it, i can let my buddy know. He wants it repaired and he even has a part unit.

Sure, I was actually just researching how to repair an oracle alexandria for a guy, that's why I'm so into oracle electronics right now. Send me a PM, I wouldn't mind to lend a hand.

 

[Superampman]

If you're looking for outright transparency, tubes get you much closer to sota sq than ss for non-sota money. It's laughable to suggest 60 year old ss gear could compete with 60 year old tube gear. OTLs are second to none ime.

 

[primosounds]

If you're looking for outright transparency, tubes get you much closer to sota sq than ss for non-sota money. It's laughable to suggest 60 year old ss gear could compete with 60 year old tube gear. OTLs are second to none ime.

Actually , there is some love for that old SS gear. If i am not mistaken, the vintage Mac transistor amps with output trannys are supposed to be quite good, but that is a statement that i have no experience with and just read about.

 

[Superampman]

Actually , there is some love for that old SS gear. If i am not mistaken, the vintage Mac transistor amps with output trannys are supposed to be quite good, but that is a statement that i have no experience with and just read about.

I heard a ss Mac when I was on the hunt in the late 70's. It was already vintage then and the shop owner had it for sale. It was absolutely one of the worst sounding amps I have ever heard to this day. I don't think McIntosh had heard of the concept of transient response at that stage. It truly was laughable. It brought grins to all of our faces including the owner.

I recently listened to another one. I don't recall the model. No more than 15 years old but in great shape. It had OPTs. I did not like it at all. It sounded somehow constrained.

 

[primosounds]

I heard a ss Mac when I was on the hunt in the late 70's. It was already vintage then and the shop owner had it for sale. It was absolutely one of the worst sounding amps I have ever heard to this day. I don't think McIntosh had heard of the concept of transient response at that stage. It truly was laughable. It brought grins to all of our faces including the owner.

I recently listened to another one. I don't recall the model. No more than 15 years old but in great shape. It had OPTs. I did not like it at all. It sounded somehow constrained.

Well, there you go, i guess the guy who wrote the article that i read, was full of you know what! I have not bought a SS amp, except home theatre (and i have given up on that), for over 30 years.
Although, if you check sale prices on that stuff, somebody is suitable impressed to pay a bag of shekels or i mean yuan.

 

[Superampman]

I have had/have some great ss gear, superb sq. But the relative simplicity of the tube gear I have outranks it since by nature, the complexity of the ss gear escalates it's cost while keeping sq at par.

 

[Wildcat]

I heard a ss Mac when I was on the hunt in the late 70's. It was already vintage then and the shop owner had it for sale. It was absolutely one of the worst sounding amps I have ever heard to this day. I don't think McIntosh had heard of the concept of transient response at that stage. It truly was laughable. It brought grins to all of our faces including the owner.

I recently listened to another one. I don't recall the model. No more than 15 years old but in great shape. It had OPTs. I did not like it at all. It sounded somehow constrained.

That reminds me of the demo I heard at AXPONA--one dealer was demonstrating the Martin Logan speakers and they had a harsh, strident characteristic to them--they were driving these with all SS McIntosh electronics, including those two humongous monoblocks. It sounded so bad the second year (played way too loud) that it drove me out of the room. Another room, exact same speakers, Constellation electronics...bliss, and I let that dealer know I appreciated the good sound. To be honest, I've heard SS McIntosh electronics for decades and was never all that impressed. I have not, however, heard their classic tube amp designs. I would bet they sound so much better.