Union members step forward
- Thread starter Kim G
- Start date
ProAc_Fan
Addicted Member
Thor they've had a similar effect on the once thriving auto manufacturing plants around here. It's only a matter of time til these plants are closed. I could tell you countless horror stories of guys who are protected by their unions when their value as employees is zero. I personally know of some CAW workers who look on trips to detox( with pay ofcourse) as vacations. In fact, if you have enough years in at GM I don't know of any offense that could cost you your job. GM now pays their employees to retire early. It's more cost effective to get rid of them then to have them hanging around doing bupkis.
Mike
Mike
THOR
Fearless Prophet
My friend works for the Maine Gov. so he has been at these bankruptcy hearings going on and it is the incredibly high wages they are forced to pay people by the unions for non-skilled labor that is killing the mills. For example a guy can learn to run the rolling machine or whatever in less than an hour and the guy just sits on his ass watrching dials and pressing like two buttons and they are paying him $27.00 an hour 
Thats almost $60,000 a year (this is a lot of money in Maine) not even including his benefits. Why would a company do this when they can go to some 3rd world country and pay to have the wood shipped there and pay folks like $2 an hour?
Thats almost $60,000 a year (this is a lot of money in Maine) not even including his benefits. Why would a company do this when they can go to some 3rd world country and pay to have the wood shipped there and pay folks like $2 an hour?
ProAc_Fan
Addicted Member
I used to work at a local papermill (Domtar) so I know exactly what you mean Thor. A lot of jobs there( like rollwrap) my 6 yr old could do and the going wage has little to do with effort or skills. Hell the janitor was also in the union and made more than $25 hr to dust for Christ's sake. Like Judge Smails said in Caddyshack.." the world needs ditch diggers too" but society can't afford to pay them like a doctor or a lawyer. I know guys on the line at GM who make more than $100,000 annually and don't do a goddamn thing.
Mike
Mike
Thor
As Printer I am familiar with the ins and outs of a paper mill. Those guys that run those paper presses are definitely skilled as are the alot of the folks in the entire mill. There's no way you can learn to do any of the jobs in there in one hour. I read the trade mags and the ones who shut down the Mills are the Corporations. used to be there were many individual paper companies. Now one by one the largest have bought up all the rest. Now there are only a few left. Well with the advent of Home computers and printers this has put a huge hurt on the printing industry. Printers are cutting each others throats price wise in order to win all jobs they bid. What's that mean ? well it mean they want paper cheaper and cheaper. Well paper cost were quite low in the 1990's and have been steadily rising back up to the high prices of the 1980's. Bottom line you have to buy the Bigger companies paper to get a better price. The larger companies have been on hard times to. That means mill closings. Another big factor is the price of paper coming from out of the country. Canada is one of the largest suppliers in the world.Bottom line is its the Large companies own fault. They went out and bought up all these non profitable small companies and now they are screwed. In this particular case the unions have very, very little to do with mill closings.
PS
You think 27 bucks an hour is alot you should
see what the lead pressman of a large newspapers
or magazines make. Let me tell you they earn every freaking dollar of it !
As Printer I am familiar with the ins and outs of a paper mill. Those guys that run those paper presses are definitely skilled as are the alot of the folks in the entire mill. There's no way you can learn to do any of the jobs in there in one hour. I read the trade mags and the ones who shut down the Mills are the Corporations. used to be there were many individual paper companies. Now one by one the largest have bought up all the rest. Now there are only a few left. Well with the advent of Home computers and printers this has put a huge hurt on the printing industry. Printers are cutting each others throats price wise in order to win all jobs they bid. What's that mean ? well it mean they want paper cheaper and cheaper. Well paper cost were quite low in the 1990's and have been steadily rising back up to the high prices of the 1980's. Bottom line you have to buy the Bigger companies paper to get a better price. The larger companies have been on hard times to. That means mill closings. Another big factor is the price of paper coming from out of the country. Canada is one of the largest suppliers in the world.Bottom line is its the Large companies own fault. They went out and bought up all these non profitable small companies and now they are screwed. In this particular case the unions have very, very little to do with mill closings.
PS
You think 27 bucks an hour is alot you should
see what the lead pressman of a large newspapers
or magazines make. Let me tell you they earn every freaking dollar of it !
THOR
Fearless Prophet
Grump that story was what my friend told me who works for the government and has toured the mills and heard testimonies in bankruptcy court. I have no clue what goes on in paper mills I do know there are many jobs that require little skill and little initiative since I have friends who worked in the mill in my old hometown, Bucksport ME, and would brag about how much they get paid to do little of nothing and like Pro says even the janitors get paid more money then most people because of the unions.
Thor
In all the Mills I toured I didnt get to see what the janitors did. Guess I shouldnt have spoken for all the wokers, I do know the guys that run the presses and cutters works deserve what they get. The others well .....I just dont know.
Grumpy
In all the Mills I toured I didnt get to see what the janitors did. Guess I shouldnt have spoken for all the wokers, I do know the guys that run the presses and cutters works deserve what they get. The others well .....I just dont know.
Grumpy
reyneman
Requiescat in pace
Unions make easy
targets for any economic woes.
I believe that the Unions served an important function in the present economic stature of the working man. However, their excesses in the late sixties, along with their self-serving rather than member serving actions in the seventies, turned many against them.
However, one of the basic reasons Corps have financial problems is that the owners (shareholders) in US corporations are there for short term, not long term gains. Therfore, capital, even in bad times, was removed rather than reinvested into the corporation. This action meant that the business infrastructure deteriorated with no $$ available to rebuild/update/modernize. This lack of foresight is pushed onto the "lazy" American worker- after all, it is the capitalized people who control the news.
Throughout the last century, the pendulum has swung back and forth between Ownership and labor, but has rarely remained so long on one side as it has recently. This has allowed an entire generation to be indoctrinated "properly" by those who own the companies. Hey, it's not OUR fault that too much capital was removed. Blame those without the means to get their story told, and be sure we weaken any organization that may enable both sides to get equal hearings.
No, I am not pro union or pro management, just trying, in a limited space, to show that there is always two or more sides, and to blame labor is an east answer to a difficult equation.
Mayhaps we should blame the entire basis of funding as used in the US? Nah, too many influential people won't permit that.
targets for any economic woes.
I believe that the Unions served an important function in the present economic stature of the working man. However, their excesses in the late sixties, along with their self-serving rather than member serving actions in the seventies, turned many against them.
However, one of the basic reasons Corps have financial problems is that the owners (shareholders) in US corporations are there for short term, not long term gains. Therfore, capital, even in bad times, was removed rather than reinvested into the corporation. This action meant that the business infrastructure deteriorated with no $$ available to rebuild/update/modernize. This lack of foresight is pushed onto the "lazy" American worker- after all, it is the capitalized people who control the news.
Throughout the last century, the pendulum has swung back and forth between Ownership and labor, but has rarely remained so long on one side as it has recently. This has allowed an entire generation to be indoctrinated "properly" by those who own the companies. Hey, it's not OUR fault that too much capital was removed. Blame those without the means to get their story told, and be sure we weaken any organization that may enable both sides to get equal hearings.
No, I am not pro union or pro management, just trying, in a limited space, to show that there is always two or more sides, and to blame labor is an east answer to a difficult equation.
Mayhaps we should blame the entire basis of funding as used in the US? Nah, too many influential people won't permit that.
gonefishin
Super Member
iaff for me
before that the ibew
before that the ibew
Unions protect us from the company, but who protects us from the unions?
Nothing but parasites.
My first encounter with a union was in high school 1973. I was getting paid $1.925 an hour for a part time job as a department store boxboy. My initiation fee to the retail clerks union was nearly 3 weeks pay! I had no choice in the matter.
Next, the UAW, working in a truck body factory in Illinois. My welding gloves had a small hole in the index finger where hot rods had stiffened the leather and cracked them.
I wanted a new pair of gloves issued.
The drunk running the equipment cage told me, "NO!"
I asked a guy if the union would help me. He said, "I doubt it. The drunk in the equipment cage is the union president."
Then, the Illinois Nurses Association. You could refuse to join but still had to pay three fourths normal dues as your "Fair Share". For that, you got NO union help when if you really needed it. Fair Share my ass!
Time and again I saw unions wasting time and resources defending loudmouthed misfits who DESERVED to be fired, while the rest of us were expected to shut up and joyfully hand over our monthly dues.
Thank God I work for myself now.
Nothing but parasites.
My first encounter with a union was in high school 1973. I was getting paid $1.925 an hour for a part time job as a department store boxboy. My initiation fee to the retail clerks union was nearly 3 weeks pay! I had no choice in the matter.
Next, the UAW, working in a truck body factory in Illinois. My welding gloves had a small hole in the index finger where hot rods had stiffened the leather and cracked them.
I wanted a new pair of gloves issued.
The drunk running the equipment cage told me, "NO!"
I asked a guy if the union would help me. He said, "I doubt it. The drunk in the equipment cage is the union president."
Then, the Illinois Nurses Association. You could refuse to join but still had to pay three fourths normal dues as your "Fair Share". For that, you got NO union help when if you really needed it. Fair Share my ass!
Time and again I saw unions wasting time and resources defending loudmouthed misfits who DESERVED to be fired, while the rest of us were expected to shut up and joyfully hand over our monthly dues.
Thank God I work for myself now.
rgrjit8
Your statement that unions protect us from the company is the reason unions exist. Thank God. If they didn't, the US would just be another sweat mill like so many of the countries that US companies are now " Out sourcing ". Not to say that they don't exist here now, they do. Entire industries work in this country that rely on not paying their workers even minimum wage or any benefits while the owners and management make ridiculous amounts of money. Restaurants come to mind.
Thor
I think you are confused. OSHA is there to make the workplace safe, not to make the companies treat their employees good.Correct me if I am wrong, but if a company negotiates a contract with a union, aren't they agreeing to the unions terms? How do the unions "force " them to do this?
Kim
Your statement that unions protect us from the company is the reason unions exist. Thank God. If they didn't, the US would just be another sweat mill like so many of the countries that US companies are now " Out sourcing ". Not to say that they don't exist here now, they do. Entire industries work in this country that rely on not paying their workers even minimum wage or any benefits while the owners and management make ridiculous amounts of money. Restaurants come to mind.
Thor
I think you are confused. OSHA is there to make the workplace safe, not to make the companies treat their employees good.Correct me if I am wrong, but if a company negotiates a contract with a union, aren't they agreeing to the unions terms? How do the unions "force " them to do this?
Kim
THOR
Fearless Prophet
Minumum wage and OSHA, Unions were also formed because of unsafe work pratices check your history, and I am sure there are other government agencies, protect workers and America from being a "sweat mill"
The bottom line is that you can't pay workers the inflated wages unions demand and expect to compete with foreign companies who can produce the same products with the same (often better, because if you are stuck paying a high wage and can't change that where do you cut corners?) quality at a cheaper price. People should be paid based upon their skills, education, training, experience, dependability etc. and above all their output not because their job commands this pay because the Union says so. The auto industry, the paper mill industry, steel industry, how many other industries has unions run into the ground? They have outlived their usefullness.
The bottom line is that you can't pay workers the inflated wages unions demand and expect to compete with foreign companies who can produce the same products with the same (often better, because if you are stuck paying a high wage and can't change that where do you cut corners?) quality at a cheaper price. People should be paid based upon their skills, education, training, experience, dependability etc. and above all their output not because their job commands this pay because the Union says so. The auto industry, the paper mill industry, steel industry, how many other industries has unions run into the ground? They have outlived their usefullness.
The unions SERVED their purpose in the evolution of Labor relations. Why should there be a self sustaining quasi-bureaucracy/royalty feeding off the main body long after its objectives have been met?
Consider wisdom teeth and the vermiform appendix, they served an evolutionary function, but now, when they become painful they are removed.
-To the vast relief of the body in general I might add.
It's funny how the unions just kind of slink away and disappear when a company moves production overseas.
Who is it they are looking out for again?
To expand on Thor's point. There are now federal and state laws, not to mention civil tort laws in place to protect workers from unsafe working conditions, not to mention minimum wage laws. Unions are no longer the only game in town.
Consider wisdom teeth and the vermiform appendix, they served an evolutionary function, but now, when they become painful they are removed.
-To the vast relief of the body in general I might add.
It's funny how the unions just kind of slink away and disappear when a company moves production overseas.
Who is it they are looking out for again?
To expand on Thor's point. There are now federal and state laws, not to mention civil tort laws in place to protect workers from unsafe working conditions, not to mention minimum wage laws. Unions are no longer the only game in town.
Hey Thor, you're too quick for me!
Ya know this kinda reminds me of the slave reparation issue.
-People who never owned slaves paying money to people who were never slaves.
Only in this case, reparations (union dues) are being paid by people who've never worked in Sinclair's "Jungle" TO people who have never had to take a thumpin' for worker's rights.
Ya know this kinda reminds me of the slave reparation issue.
-People who never owned slaves paying money to people who were never slaves.
Only in this case, reparations (union dues) are being paid by people who've never worked in Sinclair's "Jungle" TO people who have never had to take a thumpin' for worker's rights.
hotgas
Super Member
I think I'd better move my opinions to this topic
There are abosolutely no unions in electronics industry in Silicon Valley and we have been doing very well; in fact much better than any unionized industries if you just look at its successful rate and wealth of its employees. Unions were needed in a capitalist system in the old days when laws were not good enough to protects the workers. Today unions are burdens and only hamper fast development of many advanced industries; especially industries that produce products. Non-production industries like USPS, airlines, healthcares, etc.. may need unions only if they indeed help workers fight against unjust management decisions. My 2 cents !
One big company I know planed to open a production plant that can create jobs for 20,000 people. When the management heard about the town decision to establish a union to "protect" workers, they said " you all can kiss your future jobs goodbye": and moved the whole production line to Thailand where it is much cheaper. Guess they learn a good lesson huh?
There are abosolutely no unions in electronics industry in Silicon Valley and we have been doing very well; in fact much better than any unionized industries if you just look at its successful rate and wealth of its employees. Unions were needed in a capitalist system in the old days when laws were not good enough to protects the workers. Today unions are burdens and only hamper fast development of many advanced industries; especially industries that produce products. Non-production industries like USPS, airlines, healthcares, etc.. may need unions only if they indeed help workers fight against unjust management decisions. My 2 cents !
One big company I know planed to open a production plant that can create jobs for 20,000 people. When the management heard about the town decision to establish a union to "protect" workers, they said " you all can kiss your future jobs goodbye"
: and moved the whole production line to Thailand where it is much cheaper. Guess they learn a good lesson huh?
VinylHanger
Navigaret ex ironia
We have been having a lot of State employee union problems here in Oregon. They want to keep outrageous benefits where they actually make more retired then when working, then they have the right to go back to work for the state as long as it is in another capacity..so they take double income..seems odd to me. Anyway, it seems as though unions are designed to protect workers...OK, I guess I will go with that premise. Now using that premise, why are there unions for state and federal workers. Who are they protecting the lowly state worker from? Seems to me that if you are in a public union that you are only protecting yourself from yourself and others in your union that have the responsibility to regulate yourself..ie, the government itself, which is made up of government workers many of whom are in unions to protect themselves from themselves..that seems very odd. Besides, if you don't like the pay, then get out..if teaching doesn't pay enough, do something else. I see things from the construction point of view. State workers make more then we do on the outside because they are unionized and don't have to actually make a profit at what they do. If it is costing too much to pay state workers.....they rarely let them go, they just raise our taxes, unless it is policeofficers, because then they can scare us and tell us we need more taxes to be safe when they cut our state patrol, though I rarely hear of roadworkers getting laid off or teachers being thrown to the streets. They have a strong union.
As for unions competing, it is hard for us on the outside to compete, even against private unionized businesses. We had a large local drywall outfit go union a few years ago. I knew one of the managers and asked him how they could compete when now they had to have more guys to do the same job and pay higher wages and benefits. Well, he said that the union tells them to go ahead and bid the jobs below the average bid price, essentially lowball the price and then the union will make up the difference by paying the company what they are losing. How in the world can a little guy compete with that?
These are just my own observations in my own little world. So if your thoughts and experiences are different, then go ahead and let me know, but I still can't see how unions can help when they keep wanting more money as profit margins and tax revenues are going down. I take a hit as the economy goes down, why can't they?
As for unions competing, it is hard for us on the outside to compete, even against private unionized businesses. We had a large local drywall outfit go union a few years ago. I knew one of the managers and asked him how they could compete when now they had to have more guys to do the same job and pay higher wages and benefits. Well, he said that the union tells them to go ahead and bid the jobs below the average bid price, essentially lowball the price and then the union will make up the difference by paying the company what they are losing. How in the world can a little guy compete with that?
These are just my own observations in my own little world. So if your thoughts and experiences are different, then go ahead and let me know, but I still can't see how unions can help when they keep wanting more money as profit margins and tax revenues are going down. I take a hit as the economy goes down, why can't they?
