UPDATED VERSION of my TEFLON TAPE on the ac prongs tweak .........

[JBL GUY]

As I sense quite a bit of skepticism from you about this tweak, should I assume you didn't hear any differences? Please note I'm not implying you didn't hear anything because you're skeptical, but that perhaps you didn't hear anything, and as a result, you remain skeptical.

I really appreciate that you've actually gone to all that trouble to discover for yourself whether or not there's a discernible difference.

I suppose it's my turn now. My issue at the moment is that I've got a pile of new CDs sitting behind me, which makes tweaking and experimenting a less appealing proposition than it normally is to me. I'm sure you guys know what I mean.

There are two things I could potentially try here: First, I have some Teflon tape that I use when making cables, and it has a silicone adhesive. If there's any truth to the vibration theories, the silicone could potentially be even more beneficial. Second, in the link to the AA thread I noticed someone mentioned the idea of using Herbie's Audio Lab db Neutralizer for this tweak, in place of Teflon tape. I happen to have a sheet of that I was saving for future tube amp projects (it's meant for damping and decoupling), but it couldn't hurt to cut off a couple little strips.

If I get to that, of course, I'll let you all know what happens.

Again a fair question.

OK, I am going to answer you question and attempt to stay within the bounds of TOL.

For full disclosure.

I investigated the integrity of the AC outlet AC plug combination, in relation to medical electronics, long before this tweak appeared. I have not posted the results of my trial of this tweak to avoid being labeled by one or the other of the "camps" involved in the thread.

I tried this tweak with my main systems and several other systems and heard no difference. However in the vain of my questions (which have been disallowed), I performed other tests.

All of my outlets are premium quality as are my plugs. All plugs are three conductor. The AC plug, AC outlet interface is extremely tight.

I moved a pair of speakers and a sub woofer right next to the outlet and performed additional listening tests. I heard no difference.

As a further test, I replaced one of my quality outlets with a worn out outlet. I performed listening tests with this arrangement, using a plug without the tweak. My first thought was I have a bad connection somewhere (the music did not sound as good).

Understand that I am a former recording studio owner, and I have a background in audiology and engineering. I am rather capable of identifying various sounds by their characteristics.

I then applied the tweak and performed more listening tests (using the worn out outlet0. It was a close call. There may have been a slight improvement, but it was not a consistent perception on my part or the part of others that were helping me in this endeavor. I then used a large amount of PTFE tape, and we were able to notice a very very slight, but constant difference (improvement?) for the duration of the test.

Because of the nature of PTFE tape, I decided to leave this test setup in operation (music playing) for 48 hours then repeat the listening tests. After 48 hours we went back and listened again. All commented that the sound quality was worse. So after extensive listening, I removed the PTFE tape and again we performed our listening tests. We heard no difference. The sound quality did not become worse when the PTFE tape was removed. My conclusion, the PTFE tape, due to its nature, had moved and was not longer performing as it was when first applied.

The removal and re-insertion of a plug in an outlet, introduces yet another variable that is not accounted for in this test.

These tests were completed using both speakers and headphones.

Note, that in order to perform these tests, it was necessary to move the speakers and the sub woofer right next to the outlet to be able to couple enough acoustic energy to the plug/outlet interface.

I also performed other technical tests including optical interferometry.
The results of these tests are beyond the bonds of TOL.

By the way there is no such thing as Teflon tape. Telfon is a trade mark, held by Dupont. It refers to their blend of PTFE. They sell this PTFE to various manufactures for various purposes, including the manufacturing of PTFE tape. I mention this because in the beginning of this thread there was some question as to which plumbers tape would work the best. There may in fact be variability among the brands.

Dupont states on their web site that they do not make plumbers tape. So those interested in this tweak may want to investigate the actual properties of the tape that you will be using.

I tried several brands of tape, chosen because they looked different in their respective packages at the store. While I noticed some difference in the "feel" of the various brands, we did not notice a difference in their performance in this test.

So, Mr. Linn, I have answered your question.

I look forward to a detailed account of your testing of this tweak.

 

[hotroady]

Maybe it works for some or maybe not. No one knows exacty how electricity works..there are theories used as explaination. I don't believe it's an unsafe tweek if applied as discribed. The tape is cheap enough..wth if you are curious or want to 'test' to disprove...by all means give it a shot. If not interested..than don't. Will it work? Maybe, maybe not.

 

[Mr. Lin]

So, Mr. Linn, I have answered your question.

I look forward to a detailed account of your testing of this tweak.

You absolutely have, thank you. So I guess I misspoke when I referred to my tape as "Teflon tape." It is PTFE though. It is not plumber's tape. I can't recall what the manufacturer said the primary application was meant to be, but I can tell you this tape was very expensive, relatively speaking. When I bought it years ago I was just beginning to make my own interconnects, and I wanted the tape in question because of it's silicone adhesive. I've used it, by the way, many, many times as part of strain relief systems for various cables I've made.

Here's one potential problem I foresee when I try this: The silicone adhesive does not hold onto things well, and the tape is fairly stiff, so I imagine it wouldn't be long before it loosened up on the AC prongs. Is that what you meant by the "nature" of PTFE, and leaving it overnight?

The Herbie's db Neutralizer that I have, on the other hand, aggressively bonds to just about anything (and can be removed without a mess), so I'm definitely going to have to try that.

Thanks again for putting so much effort into this; it's beyond what I thought most people participating in this thread would do, if they tried it at all.

 

[willysan]

Maybe it works for some or maybe not. No one knows exacty how electricity works..there are theories used as explaination. I don't believe it's an unsafe tweek if applied as discribed. The tape is cheap enough..wth if you are curious or want to 'test' to disprove...by all means give it a shot. If not interested..than don't. Will it work? Maybe, maybe not.

We do certainly know how electricity works. However, we don't fully know how our ears perform, yet.

 

[JBL GUY]

We do certainly know how electricity works. However, we don't fully know how our ears perform, yet.

We actually have a very good understanding of both.

The science is well known by those in both of these fields.

 

[DougMac]

The science is well known by those in both of these fields.

My cousin is an audiologist. She has a Master's Degree. It's a Master of Science.

Hearing (and speech) has been studied systematically at least since the pioneering work of Alexander Graham Bell.

 

[willysan]

Psychoacoustics is a fascinating topic. It's not amateur's science. It has strict protocols that involve long tests, many people and controlled environment.
One of the oldest psychoacoustic findings were the Fletcher and Munson curves, which tell us the lower the sound volume , the lower our perception of low and high frequencies. That's why we had loudness controls until they were dismissed as "black magic".

 

[hotroady]

We do certainly know how electricity works. However, we don't fully know how our ears perform, yet.

We know theories how electricity works.

 

[willysan]

We know theories how electricity works.

I don't understand what "We know theories how electricity works" means

 

[toxcrusadr]

JBL Guy, thank you for the detailed account of your tests. I am very curious about the application of optical interferometry here. I do have a basic understanding of that technology, but am not sure how it could be applied in this case.

I am confused about your description of Dupont, Teflon and PTFE. If Dupont sells 'their blend of PTFE' - which is Teflon - to others who make tape out of it, how is that not Teflon tape? Perhaps splitting hairs but I'm just trying understand what you're saying, and it could have a bearing on what product one should actually select for this tweak.

 

[JBL GUY]

JBL Guy, thank you for the detailed account of your tests. I am very curious about the application of optical interferometry here. I do have a basic understanding of that technology, but am not sure how it could be applied in this case.

I am confused about your description of Dupont, Teflon and PTFE. If Dupont sells 'their blend of PTFE' - which is Teflon - to others who make tape out of it, how is that not Teflon tape? Perhaps splitting hairs but I'm just trying understand what you're saying, and it could have a bearing on what product one should actually select for this tweak.

It is not "Telfon" because Teflon is a registered trade mark of Dupont. It refers to a specific PTFE compound, not plumber's tape. Basically what were are talking about is plumbers tape, not all plumbers tape is created equal. Teflon refers to Dupont's particular PTFE compound. Dupont does not manufacture plumber's tape. It is putting a fine point on it, however the composition and properties of various brands of plumber's tape may vary. Calling plumber's tape by the generic and incorrect name "Teflon tape", implies that all plumber's tape is the same.

Teflon is a registered trademark, not a patent. Other companies manufacture there own PTFE compounds. It is possible to have plumber's tape that does not contain Dupont's specific PTFE compound.

When one does science, one must rely on a strict set of definitions.
While it may be common practice to misuse, confuse and apply generic terms in conversation, this does not lend its self to accurate science.

OK, in simple terms, I split a beam of light, directed one beam at the AC plug and the other beam at the wall, outlet cover plate, and the front of the outlet its self. Then I compared the beams of light. Of course it is more involved than this. My procedure was not up to the highest lab standards, but within my margin of error, it was able to provides some meaningful numbers. Within my margin of error my results were repeatable.

I did it this way because I was interested in looking for a difference between the AC plug and the wall, outlet cover and the outlet its self. In general one would use a static reference and compare the measured results to the static reference.

This thread, as I have been told, is not the place for highly technical explanations. So I will leave my explanation at this.

 

[toxcrusadr]

Re Teflon, I guess what you are saying is that once someone makes their own product from that stock, they can't call it Teflon anymore. I don't want to go off on a tangent so I won't belabor this, I was just curious.

Re the interferometry, that is an interesting idea for a test, and your description is clear without being too technical, IMHO. One would think the key question is whether there is a difference in vibration between the taped and non-taped plugs. I can see how this could get very technical very quick, because as soon as you put a number to it, the next question is what the number means and whether that is relevant. Not being a TOL regular I am trying not to rock the boat. As a scientist with lab experience, however, I'd love a PM with your results if you feel like sharing.

I was really outta this thread earlier, but I love to talk about science.

 

[hotroady]

I don't understand what "We know theories how electricity works" means

For example: There are three theories how electricity fires sparkplugs in an engine. If we knew exactly how electricity worked, in this instance, there would only be one theory that would be exactly correct. All three of these theories provide adequate explaination. That is why I say; no one knows exactly how electricity works.

 

[JBL GUY]

Re Teflon, I guess what you are saying is that once someone makes their own product from that stock, they can't call it Teflon anymore. I don't want to go off on a tangent so I won't belabor this, I was just curious.

Re the interferometry, that is an interesting idea for a test, and your description is clear without being too technical, IMHO. One would think the key question is whether there is a difference in vibration between the taped and non-taped plugs. I can see how this could get very technical very quick, because as soon as you put a number to it, the next question is what the number means and whether that is relevant. Not being a TOL regular I am trying not to rock the boat. As a scientist with lab experience, however, I'd love a PM with your results if you feel like sharing.

I was really outta this thread earlier, but I love to talk about science.

My numbers in absolute terms do not mean much. I was just looking for any change when the plumber's tape was added or removed. My results mirrored (no pun intended) my listening results.

I (we) performed the listening tests first.

 

[hotroady]

Since I've been asked in reference to the three theories; Thermal theory: heat fires plug much like match lights fire. Ping Pong theory: high velocity electrons crashing into gasoline molecules. Metal Fragmentation theory: highly charged metal fragments that are ripped off the electrode, by the spark, ignite the fuel molecules. For reference; p10 Performance Ignition Systems by Christopher Jacobs PH.D., E.E.

 

[JonL]

For example: There are three theories how electricity fires sparkplugs in an engine. If we knew exactly how electricity worked, in this instance, there would only be one theory that would be exactly correct. All three of these theories provide adequate explaination. That is why I say; no one knows exactly how electricity works.

Since I've been asked in reference to the three theories; Thermal theory: heat fires plug much like match lights fire. Ping Pong theory: high velocity electrons crashing into gasoline molecules. Metal Fragmentation theory: highly charged metal fragments that are ripped off the electrode, by the spark, ignite the fuel molecules. For reference; p10 Performance Ignition Systems by Christopher Jacobs PH.D., E.E.

There's a big difference between knowing how "electricity works" and knowing how combustion is initiated and propagates in a spark ignited engine. The situation in an engine is electrical, chemical, and thermal in nature. There are probably a number of phenomena at play over a nearly instantaneous time interval. The fuel/air mixture is not uniform, there are droplets of fuel, there is fuel vapor, there is humidity, there is liquid water. The pressure and temperature are changing prior to and during the combustion event which changes the phases of the various constituents in the spark gap. The fuel itself is a complex mixture of hydrocarbons, additives, and contaminants which is variable from tank to tank. This is a far more dynamic and complex situation than the transmission of a relatively steady-state alternating current across the pair of conductors that comprise an electrical outlet, slight vibrations or no. I think the science of steady state alternating current transmission through solid metallic conductors is pretty well understood.

 

[hotroady]

Most science is based in theory, lot of it is proven out, but some of it still fuzzy.

 

[JonL]

Most science is based in theory, lot of it is proven out, but some of it still fuzzy.

I agree with this, but IMO the fuzzy stuff mostly relates to cutting edge nuclear physics. Everyday stuff, especially related to the practical application of science, is pretty well proven out IMO. I don't think we'd have things like MRIs, space shuttles, and cell phones that pack far more computing power than the Apollo spacecraft if practical science wasn't well proven out. Regarding the subject at hand, and TOL in general... I agree that we may not fully understand what subtle aspects of audio reproduction technology affect listener enjoyment, but it seems to me that the farther away from the actual signal path (i.e.; somewhere down the power cord prior to a component's power supply rectification and filtration) the less likely it is that "fuzzy" science has any real influence.

 

[hotroady]

"(i.e.; somewhere down the power cord prior to a component's power supply rectification and filtration) the less likely it is that "fuzzy" science has any real influence. " Guess I'm a little fuzzy on this..just seems to me that the music sounds a bit better when there is less traffic on the grid, in the wee hours. I know what you are saying, though.
Sometimes it's good to prove out, what's fuzzy.

 

[Markw]

Sometimes it's good to prove out, what's fuzzy.

When a "fuzzy" theory is proven out by scientific methods, it crosses over from being a whacko theory, wishful thinking, and science fiction, into becoming a real, bonafide scientific fact. Cold fusion, anyone?