USA, it's policies, politics and place in the world.
- Thread starter Walt
- Start date
Lefty
Super Member
An emotional topic for sure that could be commented on for days with little chance of anyone changing their feelings or opinions.
All I know is that we Americans do live in a fuctional democracy and the American public will decide in the very next elections if they support the current goverment policies or not. And I will continue to support that new adminastration's policies regardless on if I voted for that person or not. When I hear of foreign people saying the have no complaints with the American people but rather with the policies of the current goverment, I just tell myself, they just don't get it do they?...
So I enlisted in 1966 as had my grandfather and father did before me, not out of desire to participate in war but rather to support and help preserve a democatic goverment that I want my children on inherit and pass on to their children.
I don't consider myself a very patriotic person and I am not proud of many of the decisions and actions of our country over it's history, but I do know that there is a reason this country has become as strong and succesful as it has. I know I'm not smart enough to run this country but I belive the American public is.
Lefty
All I know is that we Americans do live in a fuctional democracy and the American public will decide in the very next elections if they support the current goverment policies or not. And I will continue to support that new adminastration's policies regardless on if I voted for that person or not. When I hear of foreign people saying the have no complaints with the American people but rather with the policies of the current goverment, I just tell myself, they just don't get it do they?...
So I enlisted in 1966 as had my grandfather and father did before me, not out of desire to participate in war but rather to support and help preserve a democatic goverment that I want my children on inherit and pass on to their children.
I don't consider myself a very patriotic person and I am not proud of many of the decisions and actions of our country over it's history, but I do know that there is a reason this country has become as strong and succesful as it has. I know I'm not smart enough to run this country but I belive the American public is.
Lefty
Thatch_Ear
Addicted Member
Grumpy,
I don't recall any remarks about any government administration besides our own.
Everyone,
To say that I do not agree 100% with what we as a people are doing in the world would be accurate. I do not profess to have the answers, but after all that is what the folks elected are supposed to figure out. My concern is that there might just could possibly be polotics involved which might just maybe involve a bit of wagging the dog. After all I am sure, as we all are, that the people in power are much more concerned with the welfare of the average citizen than they are of getting re-elected and maintaning any hold over the policies or economics of our fair land.
The main point to my previous diatribe was that Walt was making a point of US foriegn policy in toto, not just to anything involved with 9/11.
Of course the chances that any politicos are taking advantage of the current emotional climate of the population to further their own agendas is nill, as we all know that they only act with our best interests in mind.
It would be extremly easy to take exact quotes from any of the statements I have made in this thread to damn me.
If any of you who are wrapping yourselves in the flag to give yourselves and therefore the government the go ahead to openly condemn any and everyone in the world of Islam (which includes many US citizens) then the principles of this republic (it has never been a democracy) are being shattered.
If it could be demonstrated that every single person living in Bagdad was guilty of knowledge, colusion and active participation in the events during and leading up to 9/11 that would justify the SHOCK & AWE campaign waged. Other than that the campaign though justified as it is was to remove a Clear and Present Danger was basically terror on a massive scale involving millions on a first hand basis.
Walt never even came close to condoning what happened to the World Trade Center. He put forth an opinion that it might be time for the tone of US foriegn policy to move beyond using it to justify the actions being taken and threatened. Maybe he did not express it well enough or in simple enough terms for everyone to understand the point that he was making. I read the post very carefully and I did not get even a hint of toleration for terrorism, especially the happenings of 9/11.
Let me again say that the structures that were attacked were the WORLD (Every Country) Trade Center. The people that perished were by no means only US citizens.
Maybe some of the good people that participate in this great OPEN forum would consider Australians a nation of pussies because they were not out bombing basically third world countries, but Stranes are not pussies. They were one of the very few with us in Viet Nam, of which I am sure all of you have mixed emotions.
It could be that without a very definate target many of the world's nations do not feel that it is a morally correct desision to kill and maim someone because of their religious belief.
No I have not seen war, and I am thankful. I carried my draft card but was just a bit young to go off to where ever in the early 70s. My family has for certain been in every war since the Civil War and in the case of my father, 2 of them.
I take my freedoms very seriously including speech. I think that everyone here should and that means that you do not take a man's words and twist them to fit into your own world image. Walt has been here longer than me and his posts have always been thoughtful. We owe him at least the decency to read very closely all that he has said in this thread before condemning him.
Maybe his timing was off but his reasoning is not. His statements were aimed at the current US administrations' foriegn policy and the fact that many in the world do not think that our actions as a nation are justified enough to take things as far as they seem to be going. Read that again.
Now I believe that Walt was trying to express to us in the US that the rest of the world does not think that we have any divine right to arbritate to our advantage anything that we do not agree with. He stated that it was time to move on. He didn't say to forget, and what I got from the forgive part of it was that to hold whole peoples and nations responible for what a few outside the venue of regular government have done is not correct. Can you blame every living Islamic for what happened. Yea, you can but that is emotion and not reason.
I want to express the feeling that the US does not have the capabilities to arbitrate to our advantage anything that we do not agree with or feel might be a threat to our way of life. It isn't possible and it ain't going to happen. We are the biggest kid on the block but what happens to a bully when a crowd turns on him?
American citizens of Japanese ancestry were held in CONCENTRATION CAMPS by the US Government for the duration of WWII. They lost their property and liberty and it was illegal and morally wrong. This did not happen to people of German or Italian decent. The fact that we did not work to death, starve or commit acts of genocide against our citizens is kind of a moot point. How far are you willing to take your anger and how many people are you willing to kill, maim, cause to loose their food clothing and shelter, medical care, jobs, and hope because they do not love the USA?
Being the biggest kid on the block also carries some very heavy responsibilities. The big question is if we are open minded and mature enough to be able to handle it.
I don't recall any remarks about any government administration besides our own.
Everyone,
To say that I do not agree 100% with what we as a people are doing in the world would be accurate. I do not profess to have the answers, but after all that is what the folks elected are supposed to figure out. My concern is that there might just could possibly be polotics involved which might just maybe involve a bit of wagging the dog. After all I am sure, as we all are, that the people in power are much more concerned with the welfare of the average citizen than they are of getting re-elected and maintaning any hold over the policies or economics of our fair land.
The main point to my previous diatribe was that Walt was making a point of US foriegn policy in toto, not just to anything involved with 9/11.
Of course the chances that any politicos are taking advantage of the current emotional climate of the population to further their own agendas is nill, as we all know that they only act with our best interests in mind.
It would be extremly easy to take exact quotes from any of the statements I have made in this thread to damn me.
If any of you who are wrapping yourselves in the flag to give yourselves and therefore the government the go ahead to openly condemn any and everyone in the world of Islam (which includes many US citizens) then the principles of this republic (it has never been a democracy) are being shattered.
If it could be demonstrated that every single person living in Bagdad was guilty of knowledge, colusion and active participation in the events during and leading up to 9/11 that would justify the SHOCK & AWE campaign waged. Other than that the campaign though justified as it is was to remove a Clear and Present Danger was basically terror on a massive scale involving millions on a first hand basis.
Walt never even came close to condoning what happened to the World Trade Center. He put forth an opinion that it might be time for the tone of US foriegn policy to move beyond using it to justify the actions being taken and threatened. Maybe he did not express it well enough or in simple enough terms for everyone to understand the point that he was making. I read the post very carefully and I did not get even a hint of toleration for terrorism, especially the happenings of 9/11.
Let me again say that the structures that were attacked were the WORLD (Every Country) Trade Center. The people that perished were by no means only US citizens.
Maybe some of the good people that participate in this great OPEN forum would consider Australians a nation of pussies because they were not out bombing basically third world countries, but Stranes are not pussies. They were one of the very few with us in Viet Nam, of which I am sure all of you have mixed emotions.
It could be that without a very definate target many of the world's nations do not feel that it is a morally correct desision to kill and maim someone because of their religious belief.
No I have not seen war, and I am thankful. I carried my draft card but was just a bit young to go off to where ever in the early 70s. My family has for certain been in every war since the Civil War and in the case of my father, 2 of them.
I take my freedoms very seriously including speech. I think that everyone here should and that means that you do not take a man's words and twist them to fit into your own world image. Walt has been here longer than me and his posts have always been thoughtful. We owe him at least the decency to read very closely all that he has said in this thread before condemning him.
Maybe his timing was off but his reasoning is not. His statements were aimed at the current US administrations' foriegn policy and the fact that many in the world do not think that our actions as a nation are justified enough to take things as far as they seem to be going. Read that again.
Now I believe that Walt was trying to express to us in the US that the rest of the world does not think that we have any divine right to arbritate to our advantage anything that we do not agree with. He stated that it was time to move on. He didn't say to forget, and what I got from the forgive part of it was that to hold whole peoples and nations responible for what a few outside the venue of regular government have done is not correct. Can you blame every living Islamic for what happened. Yea, you can but that is emotion and not reason.
I want to express the feeling that the US does not have the capabilities to arbitrate to our advantage anything that we do not agree with or feel might be a threat to our way of life. It isn't possible and it ain't going to happen. We are the biggest kid on the block but what happens to a bully when a crowd turns on him?
American citizens of Japanese ancestry were held in CONCENTRATION CAMPS by the US Government for the duration of WWII. They lost their property and liberty and it was illegal and morally wrong. This did not happen to people of German or Italian decent. The fact that we did not work to death, starve or commit acts of genocide against our citizens is kind of a moot point. How far are you willing to take your anger and how many people are you willing to kill, maim, cause to loose their food clothing and shelter, medical care, jobs, and hope because they do not love the USA?
Being the biggest kid on the block also carries some very heavy responsibilities. The big question is if we are open minded and mature enough to be able to handle it.
VinylHanger
Navigaret ex ironia
It always amazes me when other countries ie. the U.N. tell us to stay out of world events. They didn't want us to do anything about Iraq, which most likely is because Germany and France both had huge oil and economic benefits to be had. It possibly was also because the head of the UN was in charge of the oil for food program which was being used for things like palaces and building up Saddam's military strength. Though the most amazing thing is how quickly it went from "The U.S. should stay out of world events" to "The North Korean problem can only be solved by the U.S., George Bush, it is your problem" and now we are being asked to intervene in Africa, they are practically begging us to put troops in and we are weighing our options and now we are suddenly turning our backs on poor helpless peoples. Funny how I don't see any African or European countries jumping to help. Who is putting their money where their mouth is in AIDS relief, Uh, that would be us, though I am open minded enough to realize that it is but a small part of what is needed. I do respect the Australian military, which is usually in the fray with us, though usually in a minor capacity, but then as Thor so eloquently put it, we don't need a lot of help. As they say, it's the thought that counts. However, somebody actually has to do the dirty work, and if that is us, well, we are up to the task. I am an ex-infantry/airborne paratrooper as was my Father and couldn't be prouder of our country and our Military. So even though it may occasionally look as though we are sticking ourselves in harms way when the rest of the world is hiding their wishful, happy-go-lucky heads in the sand, just remember, when ya'll finally pull your heads out of your respective arses and have a real hard look around, most likely the world will be a better place and it will be America that the world can thank....Once again.
ckelly
Super Member
Something along the lines happened in 1973 with Pinochet in Chile... thousands of people were tortured and killed or simply "dissapeared" other many people had to flee the country or face certain death.
How did Pinochet enter power? He overthrew Salvador Allende - with the help of USA. Why? Because Allende was a marxist - and back then it was all about the "Domino Theory" etc.
IMO the USA has a responsability in the world as the richest and most powerful nation in the world, but also has to be a part of the world community, not simply saying "friend" or "Foe".
CK
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hotgas
Super Member
I voted twice for Bush Sr., once for Regan because I am a Republican and used to admire the party for tough stance against communists. But I have to say this," the current US admin is no doubt the most stupid and arrogant one that I've ever seen. "
The war is not over until the Iraqis say it is over or the US by all means try to withdraw with "honor" from Iraq like it did in VN. Bush Jr. is in no position to say the war is over as we all well understand the Iraq war is just moving to a guerilla war now.
Let me try to make the case very clear. No matter how advanced your weapons are, you can't win a guerilla war if you can't win people's heart. Coming into a country to take away its independence based on "bogus" MDW evidences and hidden greed for oil definitely won't win people's heart! And at the same time the invading army must be well prepared mentally and physically for a very long war. Think twice before you come to Iraq because this war can last 20 years like the VN war and its impact on the Americans will not be pleasant.
People are easy to forget that is why they think they can do it better than their predecesors. It is unfortunate that we Americans have to take the blame for this arrogant admin.
The war is not over until the Iraqis say it is over or the US by all means try to withdraw with "honor" from Iraq like it did in VN. Bush Jr. is in no position to say the war is over as we all well understand the Iraq war is just moving to a guerilla war now.
Let me try to make the case very clear. No matter how advanced your weapons are, you can't win a guerilla war if you can't win people's heart. Coming into a country to take away its independence based on "bogus" MDW evidences and hidden greed for oil definitely won't win people's heart! And at the same time the invading army must be well prepared mentally and physically for a very long war. Think twice before you come to Iraq because this war can last 20 years like the VN war and its impact on the Americans will not be pleasant.
People are easy to forget that is why they think they can do it better than their predecesors. It is unfortunate that we Americans have to take the blame for this arrogant admin.
You could call me a Roosevelt Republican. Teddy Roosevelt. Speak softly, but carry a big stick.
And, hooo-boy, we do have the biggest stick on the block.
I find our incumbent administration a troubling one, though. Particularly the advisors around the President.
I am especially troubled by the obvious embellishment of intelligence analyses. It does no one any good to force analysis to conform to any type of ideology, or to require analysis to fit a square hole, when the data demands a round peg.
That said, I'll admit, even as a former reluctant draftee, I have always said that we should not hestitate to use force when necessary. And, what is necessary depends on what is good for the USA. Not a party or person.
I am afraid that our formerly generally nonpartisan approach to foreign policy has become just another political arena here.
I also find objectionable the micromanagement of military matters by the civilian authorities. My same quibble with our effort in Vietnam. (Although our senior military commanders during that conflict were clueless, but admittedly were hamstrung.)
Personally, there are areas of the world I wouldn't mind seeing extensive amounts of ordance dropped on, just 'cause they're so crapped up. Then we could just go in and redraw the lines.
Fire and brimstone, ahhhhh ... the smell of napalm in the morning!
And, hooo-boy, we do have the biggest stick on the block.
I find our incumbent administration a troubling one, though. Particularly the advisors around the President.
I am especially troubled by the obvious embellishment of intelligence analyses. It does no one any good to force analysis to conform to any type of ideology, or to require analysis to fit a square hole, when the data demands a round peg.
That said, I'll admit, even as a former reluctant draftee, I have always said that we should not hestitate to use force when necessary. And, what is necessary depends on what is good for the USA. Not a party or person.
I am afraid that our formerly generally nonpartisan approach to foreign policy has become just another political arena here.
I also find objectionable the micromanagement of military matters by the civilian authorities. My same quibble with our effort in Vietnam. (Although our senior military commanders during that conflict were clueless, but admittedly were hamstrung.)
Personally, there are areas of the world I wouldn't mind seeing extensive amounts of ordance dropped on, just 'cause they're so crapped up. Then we could just go in and redraw the lines.
Fire and brimstone, ahhhhh ... the smell of napalm in the morning!
let me just weigh in here and say hats off and thanx to walt for having the courage to do what no one else in AK has yet had the courage to do, and that is to establish a thread in which we are free to generalize about other peoples, governments, cultures, or civilizations, while denying we are doing so, and then going ahead with all of the broadside generalizations we feel like making about the subject in question.
so, i would like to hereby invite all the AK'ers to now feel free in this hobby forum to step up to the plate and unload themselves of any irrational feelings of hatred, aggression, or simple detestation about whichever group they currently dislike. lets not stop at americans, lets go after the french, the russian, the koreans; hell why not? the jews, blacks, catholics, baptists, MADD, television talk show hosts, squidgy little men with too much back hair, aussies, kiwis, japs, you name it. i even would like to suggest a forum entitled Flame Those You Hate...
thanx, walt, for at least helping this AK'er to begin to visualize the latent possibilities in a audio hobby forum!
shrinkboy
so, i would like to hereby invite all the AK'ers to now feel free in this hobby forum to step up to the plate and unload themselves of any irrational feelings of hatred, aggression, or simple detestation about whichever group they currently dislike. lets not stop at americans, lets go after the french, the russian, the koreans; hell why not? the jews, blacks, catholics, baptists, MADD, television talk show hosts, squidgy little men with too much back hair, aussies, kiwis, japs, you name it. i even would like to suggest a forum entitled Flame Those You Hate...
thanx, walt, for at least helping this AK'er to begin to visualize the latent possibilities in a audio hobby forum!
shrinkboy
Well, anybody that WANTS to be president,
I guess I'm against 'em just 'cause.
Think I'd be the same anywhere. Of course, I do realize we need politicians. Just don't care for the ones that WANT the job.
We seem to have forgot that politics is the art of compromise.
Hey, I was surprised that people in New Jersey were just like Americans! Small world, eh?
I guess I'm against 'em just 'cause.
Think I'd be the same anywhere. Of course, I do realize we need politicians. Just don't care for the ones that WANT the job.
We seem to have forgot that politics is the art of compromise.
Hey, I was surprised that people in New Jersey were just like Americans! Small world, eh?
Kamakiri
The New Dynamic
What generally happens in discussions like this, sadly, is that we get to find out that the people that we enjoy conversing with for a very long time on the subject of audio gear and consider close friends, we then discover through political discourse that we just might not like them at all. But, we just have to trust that everyone can conduct themselves well in these threads. I generally don't read things like this, I just check to make sure that nothing gets out of hand.
For me, I'd rather let ignorance be bliss. I like everyone
moondog
Super Member
I absolutely agree with Kam on this one. Politics & Religion are 2 things that are much better off discussed outside of this forum IMHO.
I'm here because of the common interest we all share. "The love of music & what it's reproduced on." I could care less if Joe Blow is Christian or Pagan. Or if You're a Democrat or Republican. And on & on...
If I ever want to get into a full blown discussion on the "BIG 2"...
I'll do it elsewhere. I will NEVER do it here.
Just my 2 cents.
mOOn
I'm here because of the common interest we all share. "The love of music & what it's reproduced on." I could care less if Joe Blow is Christian or Pagan. Or if You're a Democrat or Republican. And on & on...
If I ever want to get into a full blown discussion on the "BIG 2"...
I'll do it elsewhere. I will NEVER do it here.
Just my 2 cents.
mOOn
Walt
Well-Known Member
Well I guess at the very least, this has given everyone a chance to vent their feelings ... thanks to Thor for remaking the thread (as I said apologies for disrupting the other 9/11 thread).
On balance, Thatch has fairly accurately captured my feelings and intentions in the comments I expressed. I am not anti-American (this would be a pretty stupid place to hang-out if that were so, don't you think?) in any way at all. I am simply anxious about the motives and tactics of the current US Admin, and despite justifiable pride and patriotism with the troops still in Iraq, I hope that everyone examines, critically, the actions and responses of this Admin. I think blind support of government is at best, an extremely dangerous thing, and something which surprises me from a people who value the traditions of freedom and openness above all. FWIW I have big problems with the way the current Australian government conduct themselves in foreign affairs (in a purely non-partisan way).
fish - I apologised for the placement of comments in that thread - but I make no apology for the statements. If the substance of those comments offends you - then so be it.
Further, I think it is beyond the scope of a thread like this for me to go into facts in any depth - regardless I trust that you read widely and analyse critically everything you read in the media. I think it behoves every citizen to stand behind their country but hold their leaders accountable.
On balance, Thatch has fairly accurately captured my feelings and intentions in the comments I expressed. I am not anti-American (this would be a pretty stupid place to hang-out if that were so, don't you think?) in any way at all. I am simply anxious about the motives and tactics of the current US Admin, and despite justifiable pride and patriotism with the troops still in Iraq, I hope that everyone examines, critically, the actions and responses of this Admin. I think blind support of government is at best, an extremely dangerous thing, and something which surprises me from a people who value the traditions of freedom and openness above all. FWIW I have big problems with the way the current Australian government conduct themselves in foreign affairs (in a purely non-partisan way).
fish - I apologised for the placement of comments in that thread - but I make no apology for the statements. If the substance of those comments offends you - then so be it.
Further, I think it is beyond the scope of a thread like this for me to go into facts in any depth - regardless I trust that you read widely and analyse critically everything you read in the media. I think it behoves every citizen to stand behind their country but hold their leaders accountable.
gonefishin
Super Member
I didn't see anything of substance there at all...All I seen was you posting about your feelings....that was the point I was trying to make...there was no substance...so put some there. If your going to air your feelings out like this...give me some substance to go with it.
It's fine for you to say dang near anything...Only thing I would like to see is that if you are gonna say something like this...at least back it up with reasons...not just a couple emotional type posts describing your feelings.
ohskigod
Bangerdebangerdedang!!!!
its a brutally simple concept for the U.S. to be the way it is.
if we did not get involved in wordly affairs, the world would be a lot more of a train wreck than it is now.
granted, all the U.S. has done in history was far from perfect. perfectly benevolent countries and societies exist only in the movies.
but for better or worse, the world would be very worse off without us. if this pisses off an ever growing contingent of foreign countries, so be it. lord knows if other countries increased there help in global affairs, it would at the least save me a whole lot of tax dough.
to Walt. re: 9/11....forgive?, no. sorry, I live awfully close to what was the WTC. My E.M.S. unit was mobilized for the state of emergency during 9/11. I am not ashamed to say i was scared Sh*@less. it was hard to avoid the funerals for the fallen since so many lived near me. I find peoples ability to forget and forgive directly correlates to how far away they lived from the WTC, Pentagon, and Pennsylvania.
Sorry for the rant guys, but i felt compelled to chuck in my 2 cents for what they are worth.
if we did not get involved in wordly affairs, the world would be a lot more of a train wreck than it is now.
granted, all the U.S. has done in history was far from perfect. perfectly benevolent countries and societies exist only in the movies.
but for better or worse, the world would be very worse off without us. if this pisses off an ever growing contingent of foreign countries, so be it. lord knows if other countries increased there help in global affairs, it would at the least save me a whole lot of tax dough.
to Walt. re: 9/11....forgive?, no. sorry, I live awfully close to what was the WTC. My E.M.S. unit was mobilized for the state of emergency during 9/11. I am not ashamed to say i was scared Sh*@less. it was hard to avoid the funerals for the fallen since so many lived near me. I find peoples ability to forget and forgive directly correlates to how far away they lived from the WTC, Pentagon, and Pennsylvania.
Sorry for the rant guys, but i felt compelled to chuck in my 2 cents for what they are worth.
Walt
Well-Known Member
I think enough has been said - I would quite willingly take you up on this, but to be quite frank, I suspect that discussion of some of these "harder" topics is not in keeping with what people want out of this forum. They have as much said so, so I'll leave it be.
In anycase, if you have read widely, you could probably guess from the brief remarks I have made re: current Admin, what I am referring to.
This seems to be dead now, move along, nothing to see here ...
one more reply to this dying thread-- i agree with walt's observations regarding the leaders of our country-- he echoed remarks i myself, and others in this thread have expressed-- but i think you showed an amazing amount of hubris in hanging around a mainly american forum and tossing off some of the stuff you said.
kinda like we need to send a letter to hiroshima telling em to get over it, they had it coming to em for pearl harbor.
i guess the only response i had for the absurdity of it was more absurdity. and like i said, i even for the most part agree with you. i simply don't like the implication that we all, as americans, because we are american, are guilty of something.
now, back to where we were before this whole thing started, Peace, Bro!
shrinkboy
kinda like we need to send a letter to hiroshima telling em to get over it, they had it coming to em for pearl harbor.
i guess the only response i had for the absurdity of it was more absurdity. and like i said, i even for the most part agree with you. i simply don't like the implication that we all, as americans, because we are american, are guilty of something.
now, back to where we were before this whole thing started, Peace, Bro!
shrinkboy
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