Using Tube and Solid State Gear Together ?

[a_retent]

The best gear I've heard is all tube, but unfortunately that can be an expensive proposition. I've found that one gets the most bang-for-the-buck using tube preamplification since good tube power amps are pricey. I bought my first Audio Research preamp in 1981 and mated it with a SS Threshold Stasis 3. It wasn't until 1998 that I bought a tube power amp.

Other considerations are:

1. Speaker requirements - some don't match well with low source impedance tube amps
2. Replacing output tubes is more expensive than small signal tubes. Retubing my VTL mono amps runs about $1000 every four years.
3. Tube power amps do crank out some heat - which depending upon time of year and your location can either be a good or bad thing!

IME tube power/solid state preamp sounds better than the reverse. But if you’re already paying tube power prices, you may as well just go all tube anyways.

Edit: And the OP did say all things being equal. Power amp heat sucks, and the retube really sucks. But the magic’s in the big tubes, not the small signals.

I can agree on several points listed above. My ARC vm220 monoblocks use 4 octets of KT120 tubes and retubing rates right up there with root canals. All them tubes plus (8) 6N1PS and (4) trannies are purty to look aaaannd are great during Minnesnowta winters but hard to justify using AC in the summer to cool. Another thing to consider is the power consumption to output, my vm220s suck up 400 watts (x2) just sitting there glowing, whereas my ARC D400mkII uses only 220 watts at idle and both units produce 200wrms per ch. @8 Ω.

My original goal was to do all tube in that particular system but an ARC SP-15 came along at the right price so ended up with a SS pre w/tube phono stage. So this system aligns with MurrayLives suggestion and I like the sound it produces, perhaps one day I'll go all tube but until then I waited a long time to get to this level of quality so they're here to stay. However, I agree with E-Stat's recommendation for a tube pre/SS pwr amp as a more affordable way to get into tube sound, especially if your unsure whether that "tube sound" is for you, (whatever the hell that means). As for the best sounding configuration well that would be up to the ear of the beholder.

At one point I tried a yaqin tube buffer, using (2) 1945 JAN Sylvania tubes, between an ARC LS-3 pre and D400mkII. It did add a certain sound that was appreciable but only at that connection, otherwise it was hard to distinguish when connected in the monitor loop. Tube buffers...yeah...some work, some don't YMMV. Placement in the signal chain is important IME, original supplied tubes (horrible sounding) need to be replaced on new units and could only find tube buffers with SE/unbal/rca connections. I still use one on my Carver equipment in my wood shop and it does a good job there, but had to find the right place to insert it into the system and roll in different tubes to get some of that "tube sound" (there it is again) I was looking for without spending big $$$. After all it is just a wood shop right? Sorry, I digress, there's a whole thread somewhere on these things and it ain't here.


So that's my story...I'm done now.

 

[E-Stat]

... but an ARC SP-15 came along at the right price so ended up with a SS pre w/tube phono stage.

Since a REF6 / Reference Phono 3 is way beyond my budget, I use an SP20 hybrid. In this case, each stage uses both JFETs and 6H30 tubes in a balanced configuration.

 

[a_retent]

Since a REF6 / Reference Phono 3 is way beyond my budget, I use an SP20 hybrid.

That makes two of using a hybrid. I like it and unless I get some kind of winfall it'll stay that way for some time.

 

[a_retent]

I use an SP20 hybrid.

I just looked up the particulars at arcdb.ws for the sp20...WOW, what a nice unit. Is your unit natural or black finish?

 

[E-Stat]

I just looked up the particulars at arcdb.ws for the sp20...WOW, what a nice unit. Is your unit natural or black finish?

Black to match other gear.

 

[a_retent]

Black to match other gear.

Nice!

...and mine.

 

[twiiii]

Theoretically a properly designed SS unit should sound no different than a great tube unit. I will admit Mac pre-amps sound is a closer match versus their amps. Just compare a C500 T against the C500 SS cousin. Very close. A lot closer than a 275 versus a MC152, with in the power limits of a 275. But it all depends how far you want to go back in time to reach the sound you want and which speakers you are using. My favorite tube sound amp is the MC-60. My favorite tube sounding pre-amp, the C500T. I haven't spent time with the new C-22, and as much as I admire the 2200 and valued its name sake Frank Gow, I hope Frank will forgive me for preferring the C500T. I would never own one as it doesn't have tone controls and enough flexibility. In that respect the C-22 III fits the bill perfectly.

 

[opnly bafld]

IME either way can work very well, don't worry about it.

This.

 

[E-Stat]

...and mine.

Very nice as well. And I see you're also a planar fancier. As you might gather, I'm an electrostatic guy.

System video

You might want to consider adding some diffusion to your room to optimize coherency.

 

[E-Stat]

My favorite tube sound amp is the MC-60.

You should hear a pair of 2301s.

I confess I'm not much of a Mac guy and don't favor their Gee Whiz Wally cosmetics, but I've heard those amps in a superlative system. I turned the cyclops eyes off during listening.

 

[a_retent]

You might want to consider adding some diffusion to your room to optimize coherency.

Thank you, diffusion is in the works. We just moved into this house less than a year ago and unfortunately other things have taken precedence...but I'm working up to it.

 

[Rockyhill]

All combinations are good. I mainly listen to 2 systems:
SS pre with tube amp (Parasound 2100/Dynaco ST-35)
All tube (Fisher 500B)
I like both.

 

[sKiZo]

Tube or SS makes no difference if they all play well together. Primary output channels on my system are tube, and solid state on the ambiance channels and post processing.

One thing that I think is oft overlooked is the ability to adjust the line level throughout the audio chain. That can make a serious difference in the overall sound quality as each component works best at certain levels.

 

[MurrayLives]

Of course, you can not use a preamp at all...

 

[bokat57]

Of course, you can not use a preamp at all...

A lot of great information in this thread so far. I like to consider and learn the different ways one can choose the gear to get the sound quality that individual is looking for. ( not withstanding the trade offs that have to be made sometimes )

I have up to this point in time anyway chosen to go the all tube low power integrated amp route. My thoughts are basically the simpler the signal path the better. Also due to the size of my room this is the most feasible way to go for now. If in the future I got a larger room I would consider other gear arrangements.

Thanks
Bob

 

[AdamAnt316]

I have been running solid-state preamps into tube power amps for several years now. It started when I needed to throw together a system to demo a pair of speakers at a local audio get-together. I chose a Superphon Revelation SS preamp and a Dynaco ST-70 tube power amp, as I happened to have them lying around unused at the time. I was pleasantly surprised by how well they worked together, and I've been using the combo (or a variation thereof) in my office system ever since.

 

[twiiii]

Yes, I have heard the 2301, driving Snell A7 Phantom, Magico S5 and S7 , Mcintosh 1K, and Tannoy Westminster. Its a great amp, but has a modern sound in many respects.

When I think of the Classic tube sound a 2301 in no way truly represents the tube sound of the past. A MC3500 doesn't do that either. Really the MC 30 is considered the Standard. Not having owned MC-30's, but having spent hundreds and hundreds of hours listening to MC-60's that I owned and owned by close friends, the MC-60 sound is what I think of when I think tubes. A very nice sound from 80 hz up with an emphasis from maybe 150 to 800 hz, modern amps place less emphasis on. It didn't matter if you were listening to Altec 604's, Carmels, or Capistranos, Bozaks 305's, 302's, JBL Harkness, Paragon, EV Georgian, or Klipsch various models. They all sounded special with a MC-60. My Symphony pair sounded better to me with a MC240 . A touch drier with better defined highs. But you could tell the sound of Mcintosh was in transition away from the MC-60. The little MC225 was the special amp with the Klipschorn.

My favorite amp from the 60's was the MC3500. It was so effortless and smooth, yet well defined. The highs never got edgy even when pushed. I have heard 3500's when they were pulling so much current the lamps of the VU meters would dim while Ray Charles and Neil Diamond were really working their microphones live in concert. I've seen 3500's just showing 35 watts indicated with the VU meters make Concert Grands sound like being at live concerts like no other amps. 2105's, 2200's, 7200's couldn't, and my 207's can't capture that magic. Though the 207's and 7200's when Bi-amping create their own magic in a different way. A 2301 pushing Snell A7 in a small room has a special sound, too. Easily surpassing any current Mac speaker. The same can be said about the Magico S5 and S7 with a 2301. But if you want the most realistic sound from the S5 you use the 275. It not the romantic sound as I refer to it of the MC 60 with the colored speakers of the past. If you really want to hear that great sound of the past you not only need the right amp, but the right pre-amp, I prefer a MX 110 Z, and the right speaker. EV-6, Bozak Symphony, Klipsch Cornwall, or Altec Carmel. The 60's was a special time when tubes ruled. But time marches on as does the science of sound reproduction in the home and in the studio. The 60's was a different time where we wanted to capture the sound of the actual performance in concert. Today most of the sound is created in the studio after the musicians have gone home.

I long for recordings of a simpler time, but am unwilling to give up todays technology. I appreciate those looking to look back with modern tubes to bring back some of the sound from the past and bring a more life like sound into their homes. It was the challenge of the 60's and I'm enthusiastic to learn their are still those listeners striving for that perfection today.

 

[Akustic]

In theory and the all things being equal concept :

Is it better to have a tube pre amp and a solid state amp ?

OR

Is it better to have a solid state pre amp and a tube amp ?

What would be the advantages and disadvantages of each combo ?

Thanks
Bob

Both, and bi-amp .. best of both worlds, tubes on the top, SS on the bottom and the transient dynamics come alive. . more power is better power.
Also to my ear, there is something cleaner and more natural in the middle ranges when bass amplification is handled by an entirely different amp..