Vintage Thorens upgrade questions

[tnsilver]

yes, this is kinda funny but the mounting gear can hardy be called 'SME screws' as any mounting screws of the right length will do. Actually, while you got the 'lurgy' and prefer not to go out in search of them bugger screws, you can, for the mean time, install the screws bottom up, so the extra length is up in the air above the headshell.

 

[PMP]

I've swapped the cart sucessfully now and that has made a massive improvement, so thanks Tom and 'Blue Shadow' for suggesting it.
The detail is far better and I've lost the overly warm sound I was getting from the Shure.
I'll live with it a few days and see if I fell it'd benefit a new stylus. Is the VMS3E the Ortofon cart I would need to get?

 

[PMP]

yes, this is kinda funny but the mounting gear can hardy be called 'SME screws' as any mounting screws of the right length will do. Actually, while you got the 'lurgy' and prefer not to go out in search of them bugger screws, you can, for the mean time, install the screws bottom up, so the extra length is up in the air above the headshell.

That would have been an excellent idea, I didn't think of that! There were actually two small 'washers' on the TD160 headshell when I removed the cart from there so I just used those, or is that a huge no, no. I redid everything from scracth again and it's working nicely regardless.

 

[tnsilver]

Is the VMS3E the Ortofon cart I would need to get?

I don't know, a little confused... in post #10 you referred to it as an Ortofon VMS20E which is second only to the VMS30E in the VMS hierarchy.
The VMS3E is a different cart, at the bottom of that list. The replacement stylus for the Ortofon VMS20E go by the mfgr code "STY N20E"
and for the VMS3E it's "D3E" (also good for their FF10XE cart).

The VMS20E stylus is unmistakable. It looks like this:

 

[PMP]

I don't know, a little confused... in post #10 you referred to it as an Ortofon VMS20E which is second only to the VMS30E in the VMS hierarchy.
The VMS3E is a different cart, at the bottom of that list. The replacement stylus for the Ortofon VMS20E go by the mfgr code "STY N20E"
and for the VMS3E it's "D3E" (also good for their FF10XE cart).

The VMS20E stylus is unmistakable. It looks like this:

Hi Tom, apologies for any confusion, I'm good at that. The pic is exactly the same as mine which is good. What I wanted to know was the name of the stylus and the only one I found being referred to as a current replacement was the VMS3E, granted not on AK. You've now told me so I can see if I can track one down. Thanks again, Peter

 

[Blue Shadow]

Interesting goings on. Having installed hundreds of cartridges I don't usually mention bolt length. I will mention that the Thorens bolts are for that headshell, different then most others but with a nut could be used on the SME. But other bolts should not be used on the Thorens headshell as it has a specific thread pitch carved into the receptacle up top. Some pull the nameplate off and drill out the threads and really bodge the unit to get it to be more universal instead of getting a few sets of bolts that fit in different lengths.

If you go with a stylus, get the best one that works right and you will have something. That table can take a great cartridge, no reason to scrimp on the needle, if you need one.

Tom has an interesting picture there, a double platter machine with a big spacer for the cartridge. I would not use a spacer if you don't have to so you can get a better solid mounting of the cartridge on the headshell. Some even use a dab of blu-tak to make things sound different.

Whatever, we're glad we have you enjoying your new to you table and are experiencing sonic upgrades with each change.

 

[tnsilver]

Tom has an interesting picture there, a double platter machine with a big spacer for the cartridge

Nope! No spacer. That's the TP-62 headshell with a Roksan Tabriz finger lift:

That double platter machine, by the way, is the same old same old TD-125

 

[Blue Shadow]

Oh a finger lift, what a concept. Glad I don't have them on my unipivots. They didn't come with the arms until a few years into availability. I learned to just use the front corner of the headshell and cuing.

But that does explain all those layers from the cartridge body (below the cartridge mounting plate) up to the top of the headshell.

 

[PMP]

Guys, all great stuff from you as usual. One thing I’ve noticed Tom, random and not related, is the platter on your TD125 is like a mirror, is it a replacement or how did you do that!?
I’ve tracked down a few replacement styli on an auction site so I’ll see how they go. Is buying second hand a good idea, any tips in vetting the condition, apart from playing it obviously!

 

[tnsilver]

Oh a finger lift, what a concept. Glad I don't have them on my unipivots. They didn't come with the arms until a few years into availability. I learned to just use the front corner of the headshell and cuing.

I've heard it before but it's still funny. Why would anyone wanna use the front corner of the headshell for cuing? Pardon my french but that sounds like audiophile gobbledygook. I get it if you're a 70's broadcast engineer in a busy radio station, flipping for a living, having to cue between commercials a hundred times a day, but at home at your leisure??? There's nothing wrong with finger lifts or using them. Quite contrary! It's a utility to make tonearm handling easier and to help avoid cuing accidents. It's kinda like door knobs, which can be avoided altogether by waving doors open with one foot like professional waiters, sliding a credit card down the crack like professional burglars, or busting through like professional police. I don't see anyone dissing door knobs - do you? By the way, does any of your finger lift free unipivot tonearms predate this '58 Thorens headshell?

I don't know, it seems like the clueless buffoons at Thorens thought the finger lift was a good idea for some odd reason and that the general public might find it useful.
It must had been the thin Alps air that was clouding their judgment at the time. Ugh, first it's my none existent spacer, now finger lifts are all wrong... go figure!

the platter on your TD125 is like a mirror, is it a replacement or how did you do that!?

I buffed it with AutoSol until it gave me the tennis elbow. It's not necessarily the best or only way. There are many threads about it here, like this one.

 

[PMP]

I buffed it with AutoSol until it gave me the tennis elbow. It's not necessarily the best or only way. There are many threads about it here, like this one.

Thanks Tom, Having read what people have been saying I think I've got other stuff to do before embarking on that.
Good news is the SME3009 and Ortofon VMS20E, now without bolts scraping the vinyl , is working a dream, the quality has improved 10 fold over the Shure so glad I asked the question.
Best bit is I didn't have to shell out any money as the cart was there sitting and waiting on the TD160!
The only 'issue' was testing the cart set up with a decent vinyl pressing. I thought it was sounding a bit thin and was a bit disappointed, then I put something brand new on and it filled the whole room!
I may get a new stylus but it's behaving itself at the moment.
Another thing, not sure if it's the SME3009 or cart weight etc. but I've noticed it doesn't ride over everything and just play, where as the TD160/TP16 ploughed through anything.
On an older piece vinyl, it got stuck on a pop and would get past it.
Next is buying a decent cleaning system for my vinyl I guess, is the 'Spin Clean' thing worth the high price tag?

 

[Blue Shadow]

One thing about the polished platter is that it needs protection. A few coats of car wax will keep it nice for a bit longer than not putting any finish on it. Spray acrylic will probably work better, keeping the air away from the metal. Doing nothing, if you want to keep it nice you will need to get out the Meguiar's Mag Wheel Polish every few months.

I've heard it before but it's still funny. Why would anyone wanna use the front corner of the headshell for cuing? Pardon my french but that sounds like audiophile gobbledygook.

Well it is a Unipivot and you can see the hanging weights on the inside (left) of the counterweight. Without the headshell, two weights placed correctly and held in place with the o-rings supplied set the azimuth of the arm nicely. Then over 3 decades later a friend drags over his recently purchased Magnepan Unitrac I tonearm for set up and I see that Magnepan as started supplying a little stick on finger lift. I am not a fan. I have SME finger lifts, ready and available, don't need em. I've been using a Magnepan or two since 1979 and never had a finger lift and am very comfortable with it that way. Takes too many weights hanging off the inside of the arm to balance that finger lift. Heck I even swapped the thumbscrew on the top of one of my arms to a much smaller and lighter Torx fastener. I need the tool to change that headshell but no problem it is part of my tonearm parts kit. Not gobbledygook here but I am used to it and enjoy it that way.

 

[PMP]

Hi guys, thought I’d drop in as it’s been a while. The setup has definitely settled in nicely and the old Ortofon VMS 20 E has certainly livened things up compared to the Shure.
For my ‘audio purchase’ of March, I’m trying to limit myself to one a month, what alternative cart upgrade options would you suggest?
All the best,
Peter

 

[tnsilver]

Budget?

 

[PMP]

Budget?

As before, around the $300-400 mark. If in that price bracket nothing is better than the vms 20e the at least I'll know, so any thought would be welcome.

 

[Blue Shadow]

Wait a minute, I just rolled back through this thread to see what rig gear you have and noticed you said you going to keep the USB TT (this to me reads crappy) to digitize rare records. Wouldn't it make sense to make a quality copy, one from your best phono, to get the best sound?

OK that aside, do you have an MM-only or MM/MC Cambridge phono pre? You need to rock on into the world of MC cartridges. That I think can take you a few months if you need to upgrade the phono pre to get MC. Then the cartridge is a couple month's budget and you are good. This may mean that you actually need to enjoy what you have and hold off on an upgrade for an hour or two, but we're here to help you spend your money. Since you have one of the best turntables available back in 1969 that is still a very capable performer today, it makes sense to slap a really sharp nail on the end of that tonearm and get the most out of the grooves it travels. After we get that great cartridge, we'll see what folks say about the Cambridge phono pre. Maybe that can be upgraded with your monthly allotment at some time...maybe first. We got a lot to work with using that TD-125/SME 3009 Series II.

An AK friend received a few CDs of USBed records. He responded in kind using his good turntable to record a CD to return. The guy that USBed his records was both happy and disappointed. He got a nice CD of music sounding great and realized he needed to redo his entire digital collection with his good turntable.

 

[PMP]

Lol, ok, so it's easy to get rid of the USB TT, it'll give me more room too as 3 TTs is a bit much in the space I have.
Since setting the TD160 up, which was back in September, and now the TD125, I have not listened to any digital music at all, and interestingly, any new albums I've bought I haven't even redeemed the downloads, so clearly not that big an issue.
Regarding the Cambridge pre amp, it can handle mm and mc so that's a bonus, I had no idea when I bought it!
Sounds like this cart you guys are going to introduce me to is going to make wince: the price that is. I'm really enjoying the TD125/SME and VMS20 combo so holding out a bit longer isn't going to be too much if a hardship.

 

[Blue Shadow]

Well enjoy away. Cartridges are priced from 20 Quid to about $15,000. Yes, they get better to the $5,000 level that I have heard. But there are some really nice ones in the 700-1500 range and when you apply that $ to £ conversion the number goes down so that is a big benefit.

Cartridges are transducers, like speakers, converting one kind of energy to another. One takes stylus movement and makes electricity, the other takes amp electricity and makes speaker movement...sound. These are the critical parts of a stereo system. The amplifying, making the electrical signal bigger is the easy part. For this reason there are big differences in the sound of these transducers. Most hear much more difference in speakers than any other part of their system. Cartridges can be similar, as you have heard.

Put all this together and you can listen to the VMS for a while and get an idea of what you like and what you would like to improve in the sound of the cartridge and maybe there can be some guidance on what to look at. Of course, there is also the matching of the tonearm effective mass to the compliance of the cartridge to take into account. With a medium mass arm like the 3009 Series 2, you have a wide range of choices. In my system the Koetsu is a great midrange performer but is a bit light on the bottom and top. The Ortofon was thought to be bass shy but it really is an accurate tight bass and the Dynavector is a clean clear full range performer. So right now I'm using a ZYX borrowed from Mike, mounted in his Audiomods tonearm on a TD-125. This is a sweet sounding table. His arm and cartridge are here for fine adjustments we did a couple months ago as armboards on the 125 are interchangeable, allowing a swap to do such adjustments knowing they will be correct when the armboard is returned to his TD-125.

Listen and if you have opinions on the sound, things you like and dislike with the VMS, let them be known and then we can guide you to a good choice. Take your time, you want a better than £300 cartridge, there is a difference. Here is a review by an AKer of a nice Ortofon entry level moving coil cartridge. He is comparing it to some general entry level cartridges, under 100 for them to the 350 range for the Ortofon but he is talking about what improvements he hears using a Dual table with an integrated tonearm. You have a great table and arm circa 1970 that has stood the test of time and is still a performer today. Worthy of comparison to the multi-thousand tables available today. Maybe a 5k table will be better, it is that good. The table will get the most out of the cartridges you decide to use. Of course, I don't know much about the European only/mostly cartridges like the Goldring and other brands but vinylengine does know about them if you read more than one audio forum.

 

[PMP]

Well enjoy away. Cartridges are priced from 20 Quid to about $15,000. Yes, they get better to the $5,000 level that I have heard. But there are some really nice ones in the 700-1500 range and when you apply that $ to £ conversion the number goes down so that is a big benefit.

Cartridges are transducers, like speakers, converting one kind of energy to another. One takes stylus movement and makes electricity, the other takes amp electricity and makes speaker movement...sound. These are the critical parts of a stereo system. The amplifying, making the electrical signal bigger is the easy part. For this reason there are big differences in the sound of these transducers. Most hear much more difference in speakers than any other part of their system. Cartridges can be similar, as you have heard.

Put all this together and you can listen to the VMS for a while and get an idea of what you like and what you would like to improve in the sound of the cartridge and maybe there can be some guidance on what to look at. Of course, there is also the matching of the tonearm effective mass to the compliance of the cartridge to take into account. With a medium mass arm like the 3009 Series 2, you have a wide range of choices. In my system the Koetsu is a great midrange performer but is a bit light on the bottom and top. The Ortofon was thought to be bass shy but it really is an accurate tight bass and the Dynavector is a clean clear full range performer. So right now I'm using a ZYX borrowed from Mike, mounted in his Audiomods tonearm on a TD-125. This is a sweet sounding table. His arm and cartridge are here for fine adjustments we did a couple months ago as armboards on the 125 are interchangeable, allowing a swap to do such adjustments knowing they will be correct when the armboard is returned to his TD-125.

Listen and if you have opinions on the sound, things you like and dislike with the VMS, let them be known and then we can guide you to a good choice. Take your time, you want a better than £300 cartridge, there is a difference. Here is a review by an AKer of a nice Ortofon entry level moving coil cartridge. He is comparing it to some general entry level cartridges, under 100 for them to the 350 range for the Ortofon but he is talking about what improvements he hears using a Dual table with an integrated tonearm. You have a great table and arm circa 1970 that has stood the test of time and is still a performer today. Worthy of comparison to the multi-thousand tables available today. Maybe a 5k table will be better, it is that good. The table will get the most out of the cartridges you decide to use. Of course, I don't know much about the European only/mostly cartridges like the Goldring and other brands but vinylengine does know about them if you read more than one audio forum.

Thank you so much for your insight. I will indeed live and listen to the set up and make notes so I can respond effectively in a month or so. Very pleased that the TD125 was a good purchase/decision, as I was originally only looking at replacing the cart on the TD160!
I think small steps, or medium ones, are they way forward. As I've said before, I'm no super audiophile so I'm sure I'll reach a level where I'm happy before I'm having to spend huge money!

 

[Blue Shadow]

@PMP, time for an update since we are waiting for you to really enjoy your machine and consider what you might want to do for a cartridge upgrade. That ortofon with a new stylus is a nice one but your table can let you go further. Since we didn't spend the funds last month, maybe we are amassing another chunk to pool together. We can go another month, too since you might be very happy now, not needing anything. Longer you go, further up the cartridge ladder you can climb.