Way OT: I need car help

[JDaniel]

I have an old Toyota Corrolla for my commuter car. Good car, cheap to operate, 30+ mpg, etc.

But it has this intermittent problem that creeps up 3-5 times/year, and always has ever since I bought it used 3 years ago.

It only happens when it has run a long time, with the engine very hot. It usually occurs in the summer when temps are very high, but it happened Friday on a cool day, after I had been sitting in traffic for 1.5 hours (a bad, bad commute home - but I digress).

What's the problem? Occasionally, under the conditions listed above, if I turn the car off, it won't start again until the engine has cooled off. Jump starting doesn't help.

In the past 1.5 years, as they've gone bad (except for ignition switch) I've replaced the starter, alternator, battery, battery terminals, and even the ignition switch. And the problem still lingers.

It's doesn't occur enough to make me get rid of the car, and of course it won't ever happen if I took it to a mechanic (remember 3-5 times/year only).

My guess is it is some type of sensor or relay gone bad. Any help?

When it happened Friday, I had just stopped for gas about 10 minutes from my house (after sitting in a traffic jam for 1.5 hours). Then dammit it wouldn't start. I raised the hood, let the engine cool for 15 minutes, and it started fine.

I've tried kicking it, and that doesn't help. Neither does cussing, although it relieves some pressure!

JDaniel

 

[bolly]

What do you mean it won't start, or it won't turn over... Big difference.

Greg

 

[RuSsMaN]

Vapor lock?

Does the starter turn at all?

 

[CarlV]

What year Corolla? If I assume old as pre'83 2/3TC motor there
is a replaceable section of the wiring harness that goes bad. It runs under the exhaust manifold and necessary voltage is lost
to resistance. More info will get more help, I've been working
on rice burners exclusively since 1980, I know these cars well.

Carl

 

[JDaniel]

The car is a 1990, 1.6 liter FE engine. It only has 89K on it (bought it 3 years ago with 37K orig. miles on it).

When this happens, the starter won't turn over. Everything powers up (lights, radio), but nothing on the starter - no clicking, nothing.

Then after a brief cool down, it starts like a new car.

Weird eh?

JDaniel

 

[Haoleb]

we had a similar problem with our old accord, on a hot day it wouldnt start until it cooled off because i guess some wire somewhere would expand in the heat and not be contacting anymore or something to that degree..

 

[grumpy]

My Chevelle had a similar prob. When the starter get to hot. Heat soak i think its called. Just an idea ...

Grumpy

 

[ProAc_Fan]

Heat soak was also my first thought. If this Corolla is a manual transmission, have you tried bump starting it?

Mike

 

[JDaniel]

If this Corolla is a manual transmission, have you tried bump starting it?

It's an automatic.

JDaniel

 

[merrylander]

OK, so if you don't even get a click then the voltage path to the starter solenoid is open, someone mentioned a wiring harness under the exhaust manifold, would that be it?

Rob

 

[CarlV]

Well if it's a '90 the wiring and starter are away from the exhaust.
I d/loaded this diagram. Where the B+ wire is at the starter you
should have 11 volts at least in cranking position. Even a 10 dollar
rat shack meter will show this. If not close then you have a neutral safety switch or ignition switch problem.
Except for the solenoid contacts(cold no crank) the starter motors
literally never go bad. You can also carefully put a jumper from the
battery to the switch connector on the starter.
A gassing battery will explode with no warning from a spark!!
Battery first, then to the starter.

Carl

 

[JDaniel]

Thanks Carl & others.

Where the B+ wire is at the starter you
should have 11 volts at least in cranking position. Even a 10 dollar
rat shack meter will show this.

By B+, do you mean Battery positive terminal? I can check that with my multi-tester.

If not close then you have a neutral safety switch or ignition switch problem.

I've already had the steering wheel off and changed the ignition switch. So maybe I need to look into the "neutral safety switch", although I have no idea what/where that is. I do have a repair manual at home though, so I'll look it up.

Except for the solenoid contacts(cold no crank) the starter motors literally never go bad.

I replaced the starter/solenoid last year. The problem preceeded that, and it continues today with a different starter.

Thanks for your help. I'm still open to other ideas.

JDaniel

 

[CarlV]

By B+, do you mean Battery positive terminal? I can check that with my multi-tester.
Yes
neutral safety switch is on the trans at the front of the vehicle as you look at it. I gotta run now.

Carl

 

[geespot]

I had a similar problem with a VW. If the engine was at or above operating temp, the car would sometimes not start. I replaced the fuel pump and everything was great.

g

 

[kc8adu]

check the wiring diagram for a relay between the ignition switch and the starter .
the direct to battery trick is a good test.
in order to keep the current switched by the ignition switch down the relay is used.if it cranks when you go direct replace the relay.

 

[Kamakiri]

My thought would be to get the car to fail, and have a can of freeze spray ready. Start hitting a few points under the hood with the freeze spray until you find the thing that makes the car start. Voila!

 

[Jim Eck]

Sounds like a hot spot on the armature of the starter. Only happening when hot? Remove the starter and have the starter checked, but be sure to let them know under what conditions it is failing. I had this with my El camino, cold it would start great, hot you where going to wait. Finally got tired of it and replaced the starter, problem gone.

 

[heathkit tv]

Just found this thread.....allow me to give you some gems learned from over 25 years in the biz.

What you first want to do is determine if you're getting a signal (from the key) at the starter. The small solenoid wire is what I'm talking about.

Check the voltage when the car isn't exhibiting this problem, and again when it acts up. If you get a substantial difference then the simple solution will be to install a "bypass" starter button---or Ford style relay if you want to get snazzy.

Not the most elegant solution, but one that has a great success rate.

On cars where the starter is hidden by an exhaust manifold, a heat shield is always a good idea. Heat soak can raise the required power demands exponentially.

You said you changed the battery terminals, did you check for corrosion at the other ends? I've seen many cable that get internal corrosion with high resistance--these are often problematic only when hot. Cables are cheap, buy a new oversized pair (you can never go too large, some people even use welding cables!)

Consider adding additional ground wires between the engine, chassis, and battery......if you live in the rust belt this is always a good idea.

Anthony

 

[JDaniel]

Thanks for all the suggestions guys.

Jim Eck

Only happening when hot? Remove the starter and have the starter checked, but be sure to let them know under what conditions it is failing. I had this with my El camino, cold it would start great, hot you where going to wait. Finally got tired of it and replaced the starter, problem gone.

I already have replaced the starter/solenoid, alternator, battery, and ignition switch (not because of this problem, but as each failed due to age). This problem occurred before and after each was changed.

Heathkit

You said you changed the battery terminals, did you check for corrosion at the other ends? I've seen many cable that get internal corrosion with high resistance--these are often problematic only when hot. Cables are cheap, buy a new oversized pair (you can never go too large, some people even use welding cables!)

Great suggestion. I have never, on any car I owned, checked for corrosion at the other end of the cables. DOH!

kc8adu

check the wiring diagram for a relay between the ignition switch and the starter.

Will do. I brought my Haynes Repair Manual for my specific make/model in with me to work today to review.

If I ever figure this weird thing out, I'll let you know the culprit. Since it only happens 3-5 times/year, it's hard to diagnose.

JDaniel

 

[heathkit tv]

I highly doubt that there's a factory installed relay between the ignition key and the starter. Just hook up a 12V test light to the solenoid wire on the starter and watch it as you try to crank over the engine.

If it doesn't light, or appears dim (or dimmer when it's giving you trouble) then you know that it's a hot soak voltage drop. The solution to that is to install a bypass switch or Ford style relay (as I said earlier)

This sounds horrible, I know....but it really is the best and easiest solution---IF voltage drop is your problem.

As with anything electrical, isolate, test, and retest. And if that fails, then go take a bath with a plugged in toaster! :nutz:

Anthony