What am I hearing in conicals?

This has been a great thread and I've gained conviction that standardizing my "fleet" of turntables with heavy tracking conicals is my answer for now. I've been actively switching styli in and out of Shure carts the last few weeks, listening against Grado, AT, Ortofon and Clearaudio cart variations. The one that I repeatedly prefer is the Shure sc35c with OEM conical.
 
This has been a great thread and I've gained conviction that standardizing my "fleet" of turntables with heavy tracking conicals is my answer for now. I've been actively switching styli in and out of Shure carts the last few weeks, listening against Grado, AT, Ortofon and Clearaudio cart variations. The one that I repeatedly prefer is the Shure sc35c with OEM conical.

Would you mind summarizing what other stylii you've tried on the Shure SC35C, as well as what tables you are running it on? I have two new, unopened SC35C and will eventually get around to doing my own listening tests with a variety of stylii (stock conical, N35X, a couple JICOs and maybe a NOS made in Mexico N44GX) , but it would be a good starting point to know what you've tried, on what tables/tonearms and what you thought of each.
 
1) Three turntables: Marantz TT-15 (sc35c paradox pulse), U-Turn Orbit Special, Fluance RT81
2) Styli tried on the Marantz/sc35c: N97HE, N97xe, .7 light-tracking conical from TVOM, OEM, R3X, R3X .3X.7 from LPGear and R3X HE from LPGear.
3) Styli tried on OEM-bodied sc35c mounted on Fluance RT81: same as above.
4) Styli tried on OEM-bodied sc35c mounted on U-Turn Orbit: same as above except for the OEM heavy tracker.

So, seven different styli in the sc35c paradox pulse, from HE to heavy tracking OEM. The OEM sounds best to me.

I hope that helps. FWIW, mounting the sc35c in the paradox pulse opens up a small universe of stylus options to the user. I will stay with the OEM heavy tracker for the time being because it simply sounds the most right to me.

Would you mind summarizing what other stylii you've tried on the Shure SC35C, as well as what tables you are running it on? I have two new, unopened SC35C and will eventually get around to doing my own listening tests with a variety of stylii (stock conical, N35X, a couple JICOs and maybe a NOS made in Mexico N44GX) , but it would be a good starting point to know what you've tried, on what tables/tonearms and what you thought of each.
 
Reading thru those links regarding the findings by Decca's employee I think it is safe to say that 1960's was quite a while ago and near the end of his findings the statement that smaller tips if equipped with lighter cantilevers can negate any increased harmonic distortion, is something that needs to be considered since most all of the fine line and more exotic tips and the fact that many of us are using MC or LOMC carts which have most likely far less tip mass than anything out there in the 1960's needs to be consider when taking such old findings into consideration. I have had a lot of carts and a lot of tables in my life, and other than my old Mono table I won't be going back to any conical profile, their is just to much lost in my opinion. As for wear on the groove, not worried, I have enough records that I never play any record that many times anymore that anyone of them will ever get enough play time that I could hear any wear due to numerous plays. Perhaps some tables depending on their capabilities are less able to provide one with sufficient results that stylus and cart choices make a lot of difference.
 
Reading thru those links regarding the findings by Decca's employee I think it is safe to say that 1960's was quite a while ago and near the end of his findings the statement that smaller tips if equipped with lighter cantilevers can negate any increased harmonic distortion, is something that needs to be considered since most all of the fine line and more exotic tips and the fact that many of us are using MC or LOMC carts which have most likely far less tip mass than anything out there in the 1960's needs to be consider when taking such old findings into consideration. I have had a lot of carts and a lot of tables in my life, and other than my old Mono table I won't be going back to any conical profile, their is just to much lost in my opinion. As for wear on the groove, not worried, I have enough records that I never play any record that many times anyme that anyone of them will ever get enough play time that I could hear any wear due to numerous plays. Perhaps some tables depending on their capabilities are less able to provide one with sufficient results that stylus and cart choices make a lot of difference.

Seemingly it can indeed be an opinion, but it's definitely more something to do with taste I now understand. What we do/can get out of our records and how/what we like out of them are different matters but yet for many (un-admited) very associated matters. Pride in one's acquisitions and choice in "clever" gear combinations with personal involvement can take over the fatal cruel reason that is truth.

Most began young with no money, inheriting the elder's lower-end phono stuffs and records and while the music education began, most I am sure got accustom to that so-so sound to still get some pleasure out of it. The same can happen in later stages I have noticed with people around me. Where others, like me remain unsatisfied until they reach a certain playback quality that finally suit their expectation.

That is a complicated knowledge to access (prior the internet days even more) and understand. Most Hi-Fi shops, here in Brussels anyway, don't carry the proper gear to play vintage MONO records and actually don't understand someone younger, like me, than them going down such a Lo-Fi old records road. The generic STEREO hegemony is also to blame in this misunderstanding I understand.

To venture with the right and good advices do truly help in the first steps in the quest to combine the proper fitted phono set-up. Not forgetting as 'malden' on here's quote that 'no records are created equal' in the first place. So the cartridge/stylus choice should also be considered accordingly ! Hence some people have multiple/different phono set-ups home to play as many "different" sort of records...

And some have as much as 4 tonearms on 1 single turntable ! So assuming that in the 6T's they just didn't know what we do now, is just too short of an explanation to diss the large conical tips. If technologies evolved and allowed new skills to be created in order to re-define audio fidelity-otherwise, it is merely only that. Like compact discs were supposedly an improvement at first...

In comparison, they are not the same. That because they are different and so in real incomparable. They aimed at different supports and MONO records for example do truly benefit from a MONO cartridge instead of a cartridge wire-cross binding or even more so from a post preamp channel crossing switch ! And a 6T's American 45 will truly benefit from a larger conical stylus cut (0.7) !

Now a 6T's MONO UK Decca classical album would likely do better with a thiner conical stylus (0.5) and so on and so on... This once again to state that there is no better "universal" phono gear solution ! Not because better is a only a subjective matter, but because one record is NOT another. Then the "compromise" phono solutions do exists and they can also be rich and musical.

Accordingly late 7T's and after Hi-Fi produced records should do better with a Shibata stylus or something else than a conical one in order to retrieve with more precision the complexity of the groove content. But that is more to do with higher (further) sound definition in phono playback to eventually risk the loss of "musicality" I have find. This said with no disrespect to those in such audio quest.

With my DL-102 cartridge (MONO cartridge but STEREO compliant) I do have detail (not too much), depth (2-D not 3-D) and a wide frequency spectrum (dynamic enough) that truly benefit my 45's and my 7T's well defined STEREO albums. Still now, after all my tweaks, my DL-102 cart can finally delivers as it should and reveals just how poor my 6T's STEREO LP's sounds after comparison.

And I insist here; I am talking about some major 6T's USA labels that did the cheap STEREO mastering thingy. Most of my 7T's USA albums are STEREO and don't suffer from that scattered instruments and voices spare sounding syndrome. Before achieving such clarity in sound, those differences from MONO & STEREO LP's where much less flagrant if not discomforting as it is today on my phono.

So indeed, with my quest of mainly rare and obscure MONO 45's, I accept never to expect the finest in sound definition out of those primitive but dynamic grooves. Clarity and balanced frequency spectrum retrieval truly benefit the 2 minutes or so of intense musical playback those 45's carry. Never in the quest of Hi-Fi, I finally found my Ri-Fi (right fidelity) made of both "old" & "new" phono gear.

This only after decades of collecting and crate digging records. Though I had to be advised, save money to spend on gear (instead of records, which was hard at first) before starting to tweak and dive in the pool of the audio world for the first time in my life to hear better and discover anew my records. I will never be thankful enough to sites like these without whom I never could have DIY properly tweak'N'improve my gear !

Coming from the "record collectors" world, back then I have never encountered serious record collectors in Europe with a proper phono set-up, with the exception of those 78rpm's and/or rich vintage Jazz collectors. So if the stereotype is; audiophiles don't have the good records, then record collectors don't have the proper gear is the right answer. It's a stereotype, true but I attest that there's some truth in there.
 
In my never ending quest to fiddle in unorthodox ways, I spent a little time today installing the heavy tracking ss35c conical stylus in a sc35c cartridge on my U-Turn Orbit Special Walnut to see how such a heavy tracking cartridge might sound on a light minimalist tonearm. I had only used a light-tracking conical in this cart on the Orbit, along with elliptical and HE tips as noted above. It seemed an odd combination to throw a heavy tracker on such a light tonearm. The sc35c is, after all, designed for use in massive broadcast tonearms and an obvious mismatch for something like the Orbit tonearm. Let's try it!

I had previously added little outrigger tungsten weights to the counterweight on this tonearm to accommodate another older project, an epoxy-potted and longhorned Grado blue that weighs a ton. I mounted the little tungsten weights on the outer edge of the counterweight, down low, and liked them so much I've kept them there ever since. They look nice, add weight that lowers the center of mass, and the sheen of the tungsten weights matches the tonearm. Neat.

To make the sc35c with ss35c work, I added a small "roll" of flexible tungsten putty, normally used to add weight to model cars and widely available online, to the upper junction of the ss35c and the tonearm head shell. Easy enough and it made arriving at 4.5G of VTF easy. So now I have this added-weight counterweight balancing a now-heavy cartridge, with a slender aluminum tonearm running between. Apostasy! Shouldn't work well right?

I've now been listening for two hours, running through a small EL34 ChiFi tube amp and into Klipsch R-15Ms in desk top near field. How does this entirely unnatural and unorthodox arrangement sound? Fantastic, as in other applications of the sc35c I've tried and noted above. The Orbit has no adjustable anti-skate, but this thing is tracking perfectly, as it should at 4.5g VTF. Balanced, smooth, just right.


1) Three turntables: Marantz TT-15 (sc35c paradox pulse), U-Turn Orbit Special, Fluance RT81
2) Styli tried on the Marantz/sc35c: N97HE, N97xe, .7 light-tracking conical from TVOM, OEM, R3X, R3X .3X.7 from LPGear and R3X HE from LPGear.
3) Styli tried on OEM-bodied sc35c mounted on Fluance RT81: same as above.
4) Styli tried on OEM-bodied sc35c mounted on U-Turn Orbit: same as above except for the OEM heavy tracker.

So, seven different styli in the sc35c paradox pulse, from HE to heavy tracking OEM. The OEM sounds best to me.

I hope that helps. FWIW, mounting the sc35c in the paradox pulse opens up a small universe of stylus options to the user. I will stay with the OEM heavy tracker for the time being because it simply sounds the most right to me.
 
In my never ending quest to fiddle in unorthodox ways, I spent a little time today installing the heavy tracking ss35c conical stylus in a sc35c cartridge on my U-Turn Orbit Special Walnut to see how such a heavy tracking cartridge might sound on a light minimalist tonearm. I had only used a light-tracking conical in this cart on the Orbit, along with elliptical and HE tips as noted above. It seemed an odd combination to throw a heavy tracker on such a light tonearm. The sc35c is, after all, designed for use in massive broadcast tonearms and an obvious mismatch for something like the Orbit tonearm. Let's try it!

I had previously added little outrigger tungsten weights to the counterweight on this tonearm to accommodate another older project, an epoxy-potted and longhorned Grado blue that weighs a ton. I mounted the little tungsten weights on the outer edge of the counterweight, down low, and liked them so much I've kept them there ever since. They look nice, add weight that lowers the center of mass, and the sheen of the tungsten weights matches the tonearm. Neat.

To make the sc35c with ss35c work, I added a small "roll" of flexible tungsten putty, normally used to add weight to model cars and widely available online, to the upper junction of the ss35c and the tonearm head shell. Easy enough and it made arriving at 4.5G of VTF easy. So now I have this added-weight counterweight balancing a now-heavy cartridge, with a slender aluminum tonearm running between. Apostasy! Shouldn't work well right?

I've now been listening for two hours, running through a small EL34 ChiFi tube amp and into Klipsch R-15Ms in desk top near field. How does this entirely unnatural and unorthodox arrangement sound? Fantastic, as in other applications of the sc35c I've tried and noted above. The Orbit has no adjustable anti-skate, but this thing is tracking perfectly, as it should at 4.5g VTF. Balanced, smooth, just right.

You're much more adventurous than I am. For a tonearm with a 10 - 12g effective mass, like your U-Turn, I'd probably just slap a reasonably high compliant, light tracking elliptical on it in a Shure M75 body and call it good.

When I read your previous post, I wondered if you had to do any similar mods to make such a low compliant stylus in the heavy Paradox Pulse body work with your Marantz TT-15. Assuming you have the stock Clear Audio Satisfy tonearm on your Marantz, the effective mass of the arm is only 9.5g.

I'm looking for a conical that tracks well in the 2 - 3g range for my Elac Miracord 45 specifically for used vinyl in less than pristine condition. For the SC35C, I'm trying to track down a N35X stylus and will probably also try the JICO N44-7X replacement. I'll probably pick up a couple more of the stock Shure SS35C replacement stylii while I can still get them locally for 19 bucks a pop. The Elac does surprisingly well with both the original Realistic R700E (OEM Shure M75) with a 0.3 x 0.7 mil elliptical tracking at about 1.25 - 1.5g. I am currently using it with a Sonus Silver E (another elliptical) tracking at 1.3g (listening to Steely Dan - Gaucho as I type this). I know the N44GX is a conical capable of tracking this light, but I think for this cartridge, with this table, in a conical, something that tracks in the 2 - 3g range would be the best match. Guess I'll find out...

In addition to the Shure SC35C with various stylus options, I also plan to try it with the AT-3600L (stock stylus is reported to track well at ~2.5g, which should be a good match for the Elac). Good thing I have multiple sleds for my Elac. It makes swapping carts a breeze. I've been busy completing other projects (JBL L300 Nelson Pass crossover builds, speaker restorations, etc.), but I'm really looking forward to diving into this.

Thanks for sharing your experiences.
 
I checked the Clearaudio manual for the Satisfy tonearm and it doesn't list the effective mass, but I believe it's higher than the 9.5g you mentioned. As an aside, I love the TT-15 and the Satisfy tonearm. The arm has a very long threaded stub and can balance cartridges up to 17g. I like that the counterweight adds only .5g with each complete turn, so it's very easy to dial in exactly the VTF you want with absolutely no fiddling. By comparison, the U-Turn has a non-calibrated sliding-type counterweight that requires several attempts to get the VTF right on. I guess that's what $1000 cost differential will get you huh? :)

With the sc35c paradox pulse at 4.5g on the Satisfy tonearm, there is still quite a bit of adjustment left on the counterweight stub. As far as other styli for the sc35c, please do let us know which ones you go with and like the best. I've almost bought the n35x several times but it's hard to find for less than $65 or so. I'm still able to find the ss35c for $19, which is easy enough to deal with.

I also endorse the AT3600L you mentioned. I have several of them, including an LPGear CF3600LE and a $12 cheapie from China, and they provide outstanding tone and value. I'm all Shure right now and loving the sc35c big time, but the AT3600L is a great cart in its own right.



You're much more adventurous than I am. For a tonearm with a 10 - 12g effective mass, like your U-Turn, I'd probably just slap a reasonably high compliant, light tracking elliptical on it in a Shure M75 body and call it good.

When I read your previous post, I wondered if you had to do any similar mods to make such a low compliant stylus in the heavy Paradox Pulse body work with your Marantz TT-15. Assuming you have the stock Clear Audio Satisfy tonearm on your Marantz, the effective mass of the arm is only 9.5g.

I'm looking for a conical that tracks well in the 2 - 3g range for my Elac Miracord 45 specifically for used vinyl in less than pristine condition. For the SC35C, I'm trying to track down a N35X stylus and will probably also try the JICO N44-7X replacement. I'll probably pick up a couple more of the stock Shure SS35C replacement stylii while I can still get them locally for 19 bucks a pop. The Elac does surprisingly well with both the original Realistic R700E (OEM Shure M75) with a 0.3 x 0.7 mil elliptical tracking at about 1.25 - 1.5g. I am currently using it with a Sonus Silver E (another elliptical) tracking at 1.3g (listening to Steely Dan - Gaucho as I type this). I know the N44GX is a conical capable of tracking this light, but I think for this cartridge, with this table, in a conical, something that tracks in the 2 - 3g range would be the best match. Guess I'll find out...

In addition to the Shure SC35C with various stylus options, I also plan to try it with the AT-3600L (stock stylus is reported to track well at ~2.5g, which should be a good match for the Elac). Good thing I have multiple sleds for my Elac. It makes swapping carts a breeze. I've been busy completing other projects (JBL L300 Nelson Pass crossover builds, speaker restorations, etc.), but I'm really looking forward to diving into this.

Thanks for sharing your experiences.
 
This is a great discussion.

I am loving what a good conical brings to the table.

Having said that is a biradial the same as a conical with a shaved front and back?
Does it also act like a conicsl or more like the elliptical it is trying to be?
 
This is a great discussion.

I am loving what a good conical brings to the table.

Having said that is a biradial the same as a conical with a shaved front and back?
Does it also act like a conicsl or more like the elliptical it is trying to be?
It should have tracing similar to the spherical tip, minus the pinch effect issue.
 
1) Three turntables: Marantz TT-15 (sc35c paradox pulse), U-Turn Orbit Special, Fluance RT81
2) Styli tried on the Marantz/sc35c: N97HE, N97xe, .7 light-tracking conical from TVOM, OEM, R3X, R3X .3X.7 from LPGear and R3X HE from LPGear.
3) Styli tried on OEM-bodied sc35c mounted on Fluance RT81: same as above.
4) Styli tried on OEM-bodied sc35c mounted on U-Turn Orbit: same as above except for the OEM heavy tracker.

So, seven different styli in the sc35c paradox pulse, from HE to heavy tracking OEM. The OEM sounds best to me.

I hope that helps. FWIW, mounting the sc35c in the paradox pulse opens up a small universe of stylus options to the user. I will stay with the OEM heavy tracker for the time being because it simply sounds the most right to me.


No surprise the heavy tracker sounds better than the N97HE, the paradox pulse body adds a lot of mass that the OEM conical like and the 97HE may not.

I have M35x in a paradox pulse body. The N97xVL sounds fabulous in it, but you need the damping brush down.

The paradox body opens up more stylus options but you should also consider the added mass and avoid high compliance styli with it.
 
The paradox pulse is a great way to get the wide V-body Shure carts in a shell that will allow many stylus options, while allowing for easy and solid mounting. I'm not sure what magic happens in my house, but I've not found cartridge/stylus/tonearm compliance and matching orthodoxy to matter at all. Call me crazy. I'm listening to a U-Turn Orbit with stock sc35c/ss35c OEM at 4.5g. It's a terrible match on paper, but it sounds delightful in my home office set up.

The place I can see getting into real trouble in a practical sense is in using high compliance carts/styli in heavy tonearms, but even there the orthodoxy has not held up in my uses. I have a Grado blue that has been potted with epoxy and longhorned. It's now a quite-heavy cartridge that tracks on a skinny little wisp of a cantilever at 1.5g. I have had no troubles at all with this heavy cart, on a Satisfy tonearm, riding aboard that skinny cantilever.

No surprise the heavy tracker sounds better than the N97HE, the paradox pulse body adds a lot of mass that the OEM conical like and the 97HE may not.

I have M35x in a paradox pulse body. The N97xVL sounds fabulous in it, but you need the damping brush down.

The paradox body opens up more stylus options but you should also consider the added mass and avoid high compliance styli with it.
 
Back
Top Bottom