What am I hearing in conicals?

Yes, that's true... For the most part, anyway. Really, the tonal character of a cartridge/stylus, along with it's dynamic capabilities and speed, have more to do with cantilever and generator design than tip profile. It's been discussed here so many times, but I'll bring it up again...

Usually, most low-end home audio or DJ conical styli have hefty bonded tips attached to big clunky cantilevers, and are supported by simplistic suspensions that require a high tracking force. For the DJ, the advantage to this design is apparent... They've got to be tough and inexpensive. The home audio conical is usually a very entry-level product that is designed as a mere stepping stone to something higher-end.

When playing conicals with these less-than-dainty cantilever/generator designs, you might hear sound that is glazed and glassy, dense and congested, dark and dull, sloppy and glaring, etc. Yet, you may find that another cartridge (like your AT) with the exact same conical tip profile might sound far more smooth, detailed, open etc. This cartridge will likely have lower mass and better controlled moving components. So, really, it is a myth that the tip is the only defining component of a stylus assembly. If a conical stylus in good condition truly sounds bad, it's probably not the tip's fault.

Being a single pair of speakers, amp, preamp, turntable, tonearm and cartridge kind of a guy, I wish to share my love and affection for my low-compliant .7 mil. conical DJ cartridge. Even if on the matter in general, as developed and exposed, I believe we agree. Although my cartridge is a high mass one (13 grams) actually enjoying 3 grams tracking force it's simply nothing of a "loser".

To "open up" and perform truly to reach the "BIG" sound, it required 4 stages of effective mass addition on the tonearm. Even Denon don't give "dynamic compliance specs" for this DL-102. At every stage of effective mass addition on the tonearm, increasing it's inertia, the soundstage kept on opening up. Hopefully for me SME3009 tonearms are very evolutive and responsive to that.

My MONO Denon DL-102 now truly achieves what I was seeking for so long. It truly benefits my beloved vintage 45's and manage together with my adjustable preamp, clear, dynamic and neutral amp to dish out of my tweaked speakers a detailed enough sound with a wide frequency spectrum on a 2-D soundstage with tight bass and forward highs. Mids are a tad shallow maybe...

Considered a mid-end cartridge, it was designed in 1962 for AM air-play broadcast. So not aiming for sparse details groove retrieving and a big 3-D soundstage, but rather "dense" to focus on musicality (which suits me better) while allowing to play both MONO as STEREO records. Yes it is STEREO compliant. So it allows to play all of my 45's and 33's regardless. It's a "winner" !

This nude conical .7 diamond is mounted on a low-low compliant suspension in a high output MC body and is nothing dull, congested, glazed/glassy (= ceramic cartridge), sloppy and glaring on my phono set-up anyway. I even gain so much in sound definition and groove retrieval trough my tweaks that now my 6T's STEREO LP's sound poor under the "light" for what they really are !

Dense I believe my Denon DL-102 is. This can be understood in a negative way like as in "compressed". Or in a positive way like in musically instead of sparse. Dark it could also be. At least to me it is as in with depth. So indeed, the tip only is just that. Even on the cantilever and in the cartridge, it alone can not yet show. Since the tonearm, the preamp ans so forth will also participate.

In some ways, I think that tip designs can be as much a marketing tool as megapixels on a digital camera. Chances are, the 24 megapixel camera that costs $79 isn't going to shoot pictures that are as good as a 14 megapixel camera that costs five times more. Gimmicks are no substitute for quality. Likewise, it's been my experience that there are plenty of conicals that outperform plenty of cheap ellipticals. (Pretty sure you could put a shibata tip on a DJ cantilever, and it'll still sound like a DJ cartridge. Put a lightweight nude .5 mil conical on an extremely rigid, low-mass cantilever, and I'll bet it will blow your mind.)

Yet, sometimes, that bottom-heavy, congested sound from the right boat-anchor cantilever and blunt conical tip is just what the doctor ordered... Nothing else can quite deliver that rockin' jukebox-like sound, or the creamy warm tone reminiscent of the mid-century consoles that records of the period were played on. For old mono/microgroove LPs or 45s, it's not just the best thing... It's the only thing!

I was proposed a professional retip with a .5 conical, but I believe (maybe wrong) that my vintage 45's should still favor a .7 one. The day I'll do it, I still intend to go for .7. Am I wrong there ?
 
I've noticed a number of posts/threads recently about cartridge setup and alignment and in my mind that's another factor in favor of conical goodness. When I align a cartridge with a conical stylus, it's not nearly as critical to perfectly set it up. I get it close, quickly check it with a Baerwald grid, set the VTF and anti-skate and be done with it. Much easier, much more peace of mind as well. Perhaps this is nothing more than a rationalization, but I believe it to be a fussiness removal factor that appeals to my sensibilities about this hobby.
 
Thanks, are there any others like the ortofon that does not have an integral headshell?

Ortofon makes a model with an "N" suffix that doesn't include the headshell. Same thing as the GM or GME.

A little difficult to find, though. Price is about $200 less.

jD
 
Being a single pair of speakers, amp, preamp, turntable, tonearm and cartridge kind of a guy, I wish to share my love and affection for my low-compliant .7 mil. conical DJ cartridge. Even if on the matter in general, as developed and exposed, I believe we agree. Although my cartridge is a high mass one (13 grams) actually enjoying 3 grams tracking force it's simply nothing of a "loser".

To "open up" and perform truly to reach the "BIG" sound, it required 4 stages of effective mass addition on the tonearm. Even Denon don't give "dynamic compliance specs" for this DL-102. At every stage of effective mass addition on the tonearm, increasing it's inertia, the soundstage kept on opening up. Hopefully for me SME3009 tonearms are very evolutive and responsive to that.

My MONO Denon DL-102 now truly achieves what I was seeking for so long. It truly benefits my beloved vintage 45's and manage together with my adjustable preamp, clear, dynamic and neutral amp to dish out of my tweaked speakers a detailed enough sound with a wide frequency spectrum on a 2-D soundstage with tight bass and forward highs. Mids are a tad shallow maybe...

Considered a mid-end cartridge, it was designed in 1962 for AM air-play broadcast. So not aiming for sparse details groove retrieving and a big 3-D soundstage, but rather "dense" to focus on musicality (which suits me better) while allowing to play both MONO as STEREO records. Yes it is STEREO compliant. So it allows to play all of my 45's and 33's regardless. It's a "winner" !

This nude conical .7 diamond is mounted on a low-low compliant suspension in a high output MC body and is nothing dull, congested, glazed/glassy (= ceramic cartridge), sloppy and glaring on my phono set-up anyway. I even gain so much in sound definition and groove retrieval trough my tweaks that now my 6T's STEREO LP's sound poor under the "light" for what they really are !

Dense I believe my Denon DL-102 is. This can be understood in a negative way like as in "compressed". Or in a positive way like in musically instead of sparse. Dark it could also be. At least to me it is as in with depth. So indeed, the tip only is just that. Even on the cantilever and in the cartridge, it alone can not yet show. Since the tonearm, the preamp ans so forth will also participate.



I was proposed a professional retip with a .5 conical, but I believe (maybe wrong) that my vintage 45's should still favor a .7 one. The day I'll do it, I still intend to go for .7. Am I wrong there ?
Haven't been on the forum for a few weeks...

Agreed. For older 45s and mono records, particularly micro-groove, my .5 mil styli have never performed well. A .7 mil is definitely a better choice. I'll bet that a stereo compliant mono cartridge really is a great choice for older, worn 45s. For my more lousy sounding 45s, I usually use my .7mil conical Stanton D6800AL summed mono with my low pass filter set to 8Khz. That combination really calms the clicks and hiss, and adds a lively bass and midrange tone. It's very reminiscent of an old jukebox or an AM broadcast. It can breathe life into records that would be better used as frisbees than played with a stereo elliptical stylus.

For later 70s-80s stereo 45s in good shape, a .5 mil will extract a little more detail and reject light surface scratch noise better than the .7mil, assuming all other things are equal. It should also be a little more accurate when playing inner grooves on a stereo 33 RPM LP. They all have their place!
 
Back
Top Bottom