What power output you claim for your gear?

What Power Output do you claim for you unit?

  • I use the number my tech got when he benched my unit

    Votes: 5 6.2%
  • I use the number my tech got when he benched the unit but state it is a bench test number

    Votes: 4 4.9%
  • I use the highest number in the specs for my unit whatever I find

    Votes: 1 1.2%
  • I use the 8 ohm spec for my unit

    Votes: 65 80.2%
  • I use the 4 ohm spec for my unit

    Votes: 12 14.8%
  • I've got a flea amp, proud to be under 3.5 watts of pure tube power

    Votes: 2 2.5%

  • Total voters
    81
Yeah, 50A, into what's basically a short circuit.

Are your speakers representative of a short circuit?

Instead of just piling on with the BS calls, why don't you explain something in this educational thread about high current amps vs. what aren't really high current amps. There has been a lot of amp design done to provide for high current demand speakers even with 100-200 wpc amps. You seem to have strong opinions on this and it would be good to see you explain the differences.

Look at some of the 100 wpc amps of the 70s-80s and you have a 25 pound block of stuff. A similar top end 100 wpc amp (people don't like the term high end) in the next decades would weigh in at twice that sometimes. This isn't because it has more transistors, bigger boards but is directly related to the thick faceplates required to earn that high end appellation, but it also has a lot to do with using big honking transformers. Eliminate the slow big PS caps and put much faster caps at each transistor and you get high current capabilities.
 
Instead of just piling on with the BS calls, why don't you explain something in this educational thread about high current amps vs. what aren't really high current amps.

How about comparing my McIntosh MC501 mono blocks to some other amps. I really don't know how to do it but lets look at a mid high end to something that claims a lot of power for a fraction of the price. I don't have the MSRP from when they were new off hand but they would have been around $6500 -$7000 each new I would think.
 
Instead of just piling on with the BS calls, why don't you explain something in this educational thread about high current amps vs. what aren't really high current amps. There has been a lot of amp design done to provide for high current demand speakers even with 100-200 wpc amps. You seem to have strong opinions on this and it would be good to see you explain the differences.

Look at some of the 100 wpc amps of the 70s-80s and you have a 25 pound block of stuff. A similar top end 100 wpc amp (people don't like the term high end) in the next decades would weigh in at twice that sometimes. This isn't because it has more transistors, bigger boards but is directly related to the thick faceplates required to earn that high end appellation, but it also has a lot to do with using big honking transformers. Eliminate the slow big PS caps and put much faster caps at each transistor and you get high current capabilities.

There isn't really any need for me to explain it when Ohm's Law is undisputed, far as I know. And, a couple examples already given.

If you would care to mention the make and model of the amp you say has a 50A current spec we can certainly have some discussion on the plausibility of it. But, I don't have much interest in chasing down nondescript rabbit trails.
 
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Yeah, tried that some posts back. You see what I got for it. LOL.

50A is arc welder territory. There are some interesting similarities between an arc welder and an amplifier. Big ole transformer, output transistors, capacitors, etc.
 
Well using your calculator it is entirely possible for the DNA-1 to post a 50Amp current through a 1 ohm load for and instantaneous peak. Thanks for that link.

Now if you don't mind since you seem so set on going by ohms law, let's get that out of the discussion since we want to talk about amplifiers and not be in electrical class. I'm curious how one determines from specs if an amp is a High Current amp or not because there are a number of speakers out there that benefit from high current. It will also help me understand the 120A instantaneous spec of my Citation amp.
With you just going back to Ohms law, sure a wpc rating ain't going to get us a high current number but high current amps earn their chops somehow and maybe you can explain it. Otherwise, I'm sticking with the specs for these amps from the companies and probably engineers that designed and tested them.
 
Well using your calculator it is entirely possible for the DNA-1 to post a 50Amp current through a 1 ohm load for and instantaneous peak. Thanks for that link.

Now if you don't mind since you seem so set on going by ohms law, let's get that out of the discussion since we want to talk about amplifiers and not be in electrical class. I'm curious how one determines from specs ...

Unfortunately, Ohm's Law doesn't get to be conveniently be left out if you want to talk specs about current, power, loads, etc. and have some understanding of them. Ohm's Law is what fundamentally dictates their relationship.

In other words, for example, there is only one way to get 100W through an 8 ohm load. That's by applying 28.28V, which results in 3.54A current. Of course, a speaker load is typically a bit more complex than just 8 ohms; but Ohm's Law still applies none the less. If one doesn't get the basics in considering a nominal load, e.g. 8/4/2 etc. ohms there isn't much point of injecting further complexity.

With regard to "high current" there is no formal definition which is a bit a problem itself. You can call it high current but that doesn't inherently mean it does anything different or better than an amp that's not called "high current".

My definition would be something along the lines of an amp that can put out lots of power into a low impedance load. However, there is no assigned/agreed number where it is or isn't.
 
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1 ohm load, 50A current yields a good number. Something I believe the amp will do. 50V 2500 watts.

Why would they put it in the specs if it can't do it. And if it can't how far off is it.

I believe you are stuck in a rut of wanting an rms current from an amp or something and although I'm asking you to help explain high current, you might not have the background to be able to do that and are just relying on Mr. Ohm. He did great work, it is a fundamental of electrical training but instantaneous and watts per channel specs are worlds apart. Sorry if this have been confusing for you.
 
While we're on the subject of db gain in relationship to watts available ... not to forget, it's not all about volume, but more importantly, control. Getting the drivers to start and stop at that exact moment where the note is perfect can take a LOT of instantaneous power. Difference is OK vs WOW in that regard. Reserve capacitance plays a big part, but your amp has to be able to replenish that quickly as well.

Also worth noting, most amps perform best at around 80% load but benefit from having additional reserve available. Good thing to remember when sizing your system to your requirements.
 
My amp claims: 200w/ch. (400w mono). Response 20-20kHz (+0 -0.25dB). Distortion 0.1%. Noise and hum -95dB, for output impedances of 1, 2, 4, and 8 ohms. (0.5, 1, 2, and 4 ohms in mono), with a damping factor of 30 or greater..
However, it bench tested to 265 watts/ch. (298w for mono), I assume that this halves the damping factor....
However, I run them strapped in mono which, I was told by the knowldgeables at AudioKarma, means that it is now making 596 watts,
However, my speakers are only 82.5 dB sensitivity.

"Real life" is always trickier that the numbers...
 
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50A is arc welder territory. There are some interesting similarities between an arc welder and an amplifier. Big ole transformer, output transistors, capacitors, etc.
Yeah, and they don't need those troublesome speakers either. Makes an almost perfect reproduction of bacon frying.. :)
 
Most of the time I don't remember when someone asks so I just claim 42 W.

Works for all my amps and receivers. Hair dryers and space heaters too.

Eric
 
Well using your calculator it is entirely possible for the DNA-1 to post a 50Amp current through a 1 ohm load for and instantaneous peak. Thanks for that link.

Now if you don't mind since you seem so set on going by ohms law, let's get that out of the discussion since we want to talk about amplifiers and not be in electrical class. I'm curious how one determines from specs if an amp is a High Current amp or not because there are a number of speakers out there that benefit from high current. It will also help me understand the 120A instantaneous spec of my Citation amp.
With you just going back to Ohms law, sure a wpc rating ain't going to get us a high current number but high current amps earn their chops somehow and maybe you can explain it. Otherwise, I'm sticking with the specs for these amps from the companies and probably engineers that designed and tested them.

In the interest of balanced posting, here is the source document.

https://www.audioasylum.com/images/DNA-1.pdf

Your devotion to McCormick is admirable. Can I assume the warm afterglow of a great DNA-1 score? Notice that the watt ratings are RMS and not true FTC, which is dodging a much more difficult test. RMS is typically measured with an easy 1 kHz sine wave, which is not demanding compared to the power draw of a 20Hz tone. McCormick does not state test frequency. This is a classic case of massaging specs. IMO, McCormick aka Mod Squad did not need to resort to this slight of hand. The layout placing capacitors closer to output transistors is innovative and no doubt contributes to the DNA-1's ability to deliver power by shortening energy path to a minimum.
 
1 ohm load, 50A current yields a good number. Something I believe the amp will do. 50V 2500 watts.

Why would they put it in the specs if it can't do it. And if it can't how far off is it.

I believe you are stuck in a rut of wanting an rms current from an amp or something and although I'm asking you to help explain high current, you might not have the background to be able to do that and are just relying on Mr. Ohm. He did great work, it is a fundamental of electrical training but instantaneous and watts per channel specs are worlds apart. Sorry if this have been confusing for you.

Nice try, but there is no confusion here. It is the opposite of confusion, actually, that drives my skepticism of nebulous specifications.

Ohm's Law does not change regardless if peak or continuous. If one uses peak value inputs then peak value result is what you get. Same goes for continuous.

So, getting back to 50A peak, as I said earlier, the point about it isn't that the amp can't necessarily do it. It probably can...under some contrived lab/bench test. The BS part is their use of an unqualified/nebulous spec that leaves consumer imaginations to run wild.

Since we don't know the test condition that McCormack used to derive the 50A peak specification we can't say what it actually represents. We can examine it and I think reasonably conclude what it is not, but what it actually means only McCormack knows.

Looking at the ratings, we are able to derive the RMS voltages at clipping based on the watts at the listed impedances. To get peak voltages we'd multiply the RMS voltages by 1.414. This we can then apply back against various loads to see what the current could be.

So, if we look at the specs that actually allow examination, we see 500W @ 2 ohms @ clipping. That gives about 31Vrms, which is roughly 44Vpk.

Now, applying 44Vpk to various load we see that 44Vpk at 1 ohm does not give us 50A, but only 44A. So we can reason to get 50A peak current to a speaker the speaker's impedance will have to be less than 1 ohm. This assessment doesn't include any consideration that the actual peak voltage may be less because more losses at the lower impeance.

So, my conclusion is that it is plausible the amp could put out a 50A current peak, but likely it is at sub-1 ohm. This is where the BS part comes into play.

How many sub-1 ohm speakers are there, so how relevant is this spec?. IMO it's largely fluff because it won't be realized except on the lab test bench or maybe in the rare case you actually have speaker with sub-ohm impedance.

Further, simply because they publish a 50A peak "spec" (quotes because a spec shouldn't be nebulous) doesn't mean the amp can do anything more that any other amp producing the same output at same load, but without a "high current" or peak current "spec" attached to it.
 
All that is needed to know IMO are specs and marketing go hand in hand, personally, I take them with a grain of salt. I do enjoy reading all the comments, as I always learn something.
The Sun is finally out here in the NE, you all have a great day!:)
 
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