What RtoR is better than Nakamichi Deck?

15 Khz response in the USA and Canada is wrong. 18 Khz usable response is possible before the steep filtering for the multiplex 19 Khz pilot tone. Danish FM tends to be less compressed and limited than US FM does.
 
This is what I could never understand about buying a vintage open-reel deck in 2012 (and it's not to poo poo on what I agree would likely be the SUPERIOR analog format, but hear me out).

If I go through the costs of buying and maintaining an open-reel deck, then bake sticky tapes, and finally have a deck that can make pristine recordings, aren't any dubs of Cd's or LPs that I make on it still going to run short of listening to the CD Player or turntable itself? I would rather buy another CD or LP copy for dollars less at a thrift shop, and just keep wearing out the original source.

So to actually benefit from the open-reel deck's superiority, I would need to subscribe to the Tape Project, and their fine selection of Oh, let's see twenty or thirty tapes (never mind that they are $300.00 a piece, but price isn't the sticky point here). Or I would need to have a friend in the record biz would could bring me home stereo master tapes or sub-masters even. So now my choices are down to semi-pro half track machines equipped with 15 ips speeds. Fat chance that could ever happen.

Now last time I posted this, someone came back with a clever reason to buy open-reel decks, stating "Duh, to play RTR tapes". So OK besides equipping yourself with the ability to play them, and even stripping away sentimentality here, what do you get with an open-reel deck that you can't get from just playing the original CDs or LPs in the first place (with better sound), and saving a boat load of money?

I agree. The reason I purchased a RtoR in the 70's was to record live performances, and edit things easily, plus the ability to record on multiple tracks, sound on sound-all that good stuff (splice block anyone?-actually rarely used one except for repair).
Also with the larger tape, faster speed you get better S/N performance, and are less likely to overload/saturate, and a overall better frequency response then most cassette decks. But of course the tape was much more expensive. I use to buy it mail order to save money.
I have a huge pile of tapes (300+) and at some point want to archive digitally.
Cassettes where for listening, or recording lp's to play in your car, or a friends house-small and easy to deal with.
I mainly listen to CD's and occasional LP. Except for listening to tapes I haven't archived, the R to R stands silent.
IMHO people like to watch the spinning reels-and look "retro", but if you buy a reel deck, with out any tapes, or don't' want to record live etc,-kind of a waste, if you are really looking a sound quality.
I see lot's of thread on people trying to figure out how to record on their "new" used reel decks. Recording a CD, or LP just to play back on a reel deck, and watch the reels spinning-again seems a waste, as you are gaining little if anything.
I get the appeal-retro/etc-but many of us did buy a reel deck for a purpose, not just for looks. IMHO the main purpose was recording live/editing etc, or perhaps longs lengths of time/program at slow speeds if sound quality isn't a issue.
Again, what ever works for you, but buying a reel deck, just to have one IMHO is kind of a waste.
LP's I can understand to a point-not getting in that analog/digital debate ( but personally I think there is, IMHO, more than just the quality/difference of sound to this debate) but IMHO it's nice to not have to deal with endless cleaning/fiddling. And poor cd mastering is more of a exception these days. I went through many years of this, as a lot of us did here-and the recording of our precious lp's to cassettes/etc, etc. Boy, what a lot of time. IMHO the end result, quality sound/music, is much more enjoyable then the process.
Unless of course you are preforming, and/or recording.
I still have 600+ or so lp's, I will play one on occasion. Much prefer cuing up a god cd, and using the time for listening vs fiddling.
With twin 4 year old girls-listening time is short.
 
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15 Khz response in the USA and Canada is wrong. 18 Khz usable response is possible before the steep filtering for the multiplex 19 Khz pilot tone. Danish FM tends to be less compressed and limited than US FM does.

I'm sorry to challenge that, but I've worked in the biz and the CRTC and FCC both restrict audio bandwidth to 15 Khz I'm afraid. Even the specs on tuners are limited to that much. I'm not arguing 18 Khz bandwidth is possible, but it is not practiced.

And even if there is less dynamic range compression on Danish broadcasts, you still have at best a 75 dB S/N ratio to contend with, so there is no way that it can trump a CD.
 
But most CD issues of late don't even have 12 db dynamic range.

As for CDs being limited in dynamics due to the loudness wars; that should not be considered as the benchmark for CD quality performance. To me, CD quality should mean at least the following:

Dynamic Range: 96 dB
S/N Ratio: 96 dB
Wow and Flutter: Unmeasurable
Frequency Response: 5 - 20,000 Hz +/- 0.5 dB

Just because an engineer chooses to master a CD by squishing all of the impact out of it does not illegitimize the dynamic capability of the CD. By contrast, even though I know most US Pop FM stations have little more than 3 to 10 dB dynamic range after they compress the hell out of the signal, I would expect the dynamic range capability of FM to be around 45 to 50 dB.
 
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Not to be argumentative here, but I'm surprised no one else caught this. How are you getting an FM signal that outperforms CD quality? Does Danish regulations allow broadcast bandwidth to exceed 15 KHz? Even then, how about S/N ratio?

Hi Jody - with "outperforming cd-quality" i mean the quality to the sound you are getting. A lot of the transmissions are clearly not made in a studio, they are recorded live, with crystal clear sound, and minimal compression or other artifacts.

From a technical point of view, we are praised with not having a FM transmitter on every corner - thus no interference from neighbour stations.

I can receive a lot of foreign stations from my location - Swedish, german, norwegian, polish, and occassionally brittish

( and off course - between the good stuff, there are junk radio here too )
 
I had a roommate in college that ending up working (and now shares ownership) with a video production studio that used 6 2" video machines, complete with their own climate controlled room, and a huge 2 console control board.
In the early/mid 90's he couldn't give them away, due to the rise of digital editing machines. Now all the equipment that does much more, much faster and easier is all in the same control room, with lots of room to spare.
I realize there is a subjective analog/digital audio taste etc, but you don't see too many people pining after 2" video machines.
 
A cassette deck can handle the 30-15kHz bandwidth , 50dB dynamic range with room to spare.
I have read the BBC used to put on some great shows live.
Stateside the transmissions were never close to sounding as good as vinyl.
 
Nakamichi's are Great but even the best Nak struggles to play 21khz with ease, and while we cannot hear these high frequencies, im sure everyone who has such a fine machine would like to know that their toy has such capabilities non the less.
Most high end Reel to Reel units will usually play the Full Frequency spectrum no problem, and at higher levels. One of the most common issues with Reel to Reel that needs consideration is the adjustments in tension and fine tuning. Once that is corrected, your pretty much smooth sailing. Pioneer, Technics, Akai, Revox, Studer, Teac/Tascam all hold a good a position in producing high quality recordings in the RTR market.
 
Akai can not be aligned to the very best standard. Their design does not permit it. Pioneer, ReVox, Studer, Teac/Tascam can be. Akais are very limited machines compared to the best. But can be very good performers within their limits.
 
The early 70's Pioneer 1011L, Teac 4010 struggle to get past 16kHz with normal tapes of that period and have lots of hiss without NR. I would say a Nak cassette deck with metal tape can sound better in all areas.

Of course the latter ones such as RT-707 do much better.
 
Not if aligned correctly. The last 1011 L I had in the workshop was flat to 21 kilohertz at 7 1/2 IPS, and 19 kilohertz at 3 3/4 IPS at O VU level. Real specs, not inflated ones. Can your Nakamichi do this at 0 VU level even with metal tape, doubt it. Maybe at -20 VU level.
 
Glad to hear it.
I like to try that next time I find a Pioneer 1011L
Which tape did you calibrate it to?
Is there any music recorded at 20kHz 0 VU level these days? I only record LPs so that isn't a concern. I'm sure there are many test reports on the Nak Dragon, Tandberg 3014, Revox B215 that can show the freq response.
 
This is what I could never understand about buying a vintage open-reel deck in 2012 (and it's not to poo poo on what I agree would likely be the SUPERIOR analog format, but hear me out).

If I go through the costs of buying and maintaining an open-reel deck, then bake sticky tapes, and finally have a deck that can make pristine recordings, aren't any dubs of CDs or LPs that I make on it still going to run short of listening to the CD Player or turntable itself? I would rather buy another CD or LP copy for dollars less at a thrift shop, and just keep wearing out the original source.

So to actually benefit from the open-reel deck's superiority, I would need to subscribe to the Tape Project, and their fine selection of Oh, let's see twenty or thirty tapes (never mind that they are $300.00 a piece, but price isn't the sticky point here). Or I would need to have a friend in the record biz would could bring me home stereo master tapes or sub-masters even. So now my choices are down to semi-pro half track machines equipped with 15 ips speeds. Fat chance that could ever happen.

Now last time I posted this, someone came back with a clever reason to buy open-reel decks, stating "Duh, to play RTR tapes". So OK besides equipping yourself with the ability to play them, and even stripping away sentimentality here, what do you get with an open-reel deck that you can't get from just playing the original CDs or LPs in the first place (with better sound), and saving a boat load of money?

You make a good point. But I use my R2R to make copies of my original pressing lp's. New reissue lp's, many times sound pretty damn bad. Case in point, I bought a new copy of "Abbey Road" and the sound is terrible compared to the 1st run pressing I own. And many times I may have a favorite lp that just wasnt "mastered" well. So I record it from lp to digital at 24bit 96 and load it up into ProTools and using gear I have, tweak the overal mix to my liking and get rid of any noise. Then I can record that to R2R and save my lp's :) Its a win win situation. I save my precious lp's, and get sound thats more pleasing than the remastered cd's that just dont cut it. Plus I just love "tape saturation" , so soothing. :)
 
if you want to compare a Pioneer 1011L with a revox I would consider the A77mkIV.
The A77 mkIV is a good machine and all the problems with the previous versions were solved.
 
Aligning Pioneer RT-1011L for 21kHz OVU Level

Well I am very pleased to have found a nice working RT-1011L.
How do I align it for optimal recordings so it sounds better than a cassette deck?
I have some 456 tape, which should be similar to SM911 in bias.

What steps are needed to align the unit and adjust whatever there is like bias and eq, etc.
 
Step 1 is to get the manual
step 2 is to evaluate the heads
If they are fine, and has no grooves, begin with alignment of the playback
all info is in the manual
step 3 is to align the record settings

before any steps - get the proper alignment tapes - they are not cheap
and do prepare yourself for problems with aging components anywhere in your deck, it has to run absolutely perfect. even the slightest malfunctions in the tape path can cause jeopardy in the alignment procedure of the heads - azimuth, tape skeewing etc.

That said - you can adjust levels, bias and eq. at any time, just don't touch the heads.
 
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