What RtoR is better than Nakamichi Deck?
- Thread starter tmblack
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steerpike2
Super Member
There are only two things you really HAVE to have a calibration tape for:
Head Azimuth - any level is ok, tone needs to be about 12kHz.
Reproduce level - doesn't really matter what the level is, as long as you know precisely what it is, 1kHz at 0dB is easy to work with.
Everything else can be worked out backwards from these two. Dolby calibration is easiest if you do have a Dolby level tone on the tape, but some maths can be done if the level is something else.
If you plan on making such a tape, it is imperative that the recording machine is spot-on in calibration, otherwise you are just deliberately introducing that machines errors into your machine, possibly making it worse than before.
Yes.
I have a Nakamichi CR-7A in perfect condition. Yes, with metal tapes it is the best cassette deck I think I've ever heard (I don't use NR however).
I also have a Pioneer RT-707. To my ears it is clearly, undeniably superior with even old, run-of-the-mill tape and with Maxell UDs at 7.5 ips, ummm it just sounds so sweet.
But that's just using my ears. Don't know a thing about the specs. But I do know that if I could only keep just one, it would be the RTR, even if the Nak is worth a lot more $.
Dale
Arkay
Lunatic Member
In my experience, the Nak ZX-9 in proper adjustment and with metal tape actually beats the average, run-of-the-mill consumer R2R from TEAC or AKAI with ordinary tape. However, the better R2R decks like the Studers and Revox and Otari can outperform the ZX-9 easily. This is based on decks I've owned (except for the Studers, which I have at least heard repeatedly). I cannot be certain of the state of wear of the heads on some of those R2R decks, though; most were repaired to "working condition" but not all were fully restored, and they may have declined from their original specs/sound quality. With the NAK and the Revox units, there was little comparison; the Revox R2R sounds better.
The biggest problem with taking advantage of that, though, is the relative rarity and cost of good R2R tape. Here in humid Hong Kong, although I've had some luck finding good cassette tapes, most of the secondhand reel tapes I find are moldy! :sigh:
The biggest problem with taking advantage of that, though, is the relative rarity and cost of good R2R tape. Here in humid Hong Kong, although I've had some luck finding good cassette tapes, most of the secondhand reel tapes I find are moldy! :sigh:
The 3 head Nakamichis sound very linear and like the source.
The heads on the Revox A77 are worn but usable. I'm sure I'm lossing some highs and signal strength.
New heads would sound a lot better. Still the Revox A77 has lots of capacitors and single ended circuitry and sounds more vintage, more euphoric and tube like. Not poor sounding but less accurate.
The heads on the Revox A77 are worn but usable. I'm sure I'm lossing some highs and signal strength.
New heads would sound a lot better. Still the Revox A77 has lots of capacitors and single ended circuitry and sounds more vintage, more euphoric and tube like. Not poor sounding but less accurate.
captaingamez
Well-Known Member
that is not accurate according to my information at all, according to what I have at hand, and have read, akai alignment was much more complex than teac and pioneer, and much more precise. I am of course talking about theit TOTL decks like the 747, 646, 77, ect.
iloveamps
"Back in my day..."
I think the point here is that Akai made some of the best and most of the worst. Most of their stuff was on the bottom end in terms of performance and noise floor. However their TOTL and later machines can be excellent.
Compare Akai to TEAC and the difference is clear- there are very very few models of TEAC which aren't excellent. Then look at Akai- almost all of the mechanically actuated machines (a majority) should be avoided, except for the GX-4000D.
Compare Akai to TEAC and the difference is clear- there are very very few models of TEAC which aren't excellent. Then look at Akai- almost all of the mechanically actuated machines (a majority) should be avoided, except for the GX-4000D.
jan_stevns
Super Member
It may depend on how you're looking at things - at best the big Akai's can obtain a freq response of 30Hz to 20KHz within +/-3dB - a Revox can do the same freq.response within 1dB.
I would at any time prefer a deck as linear as possible, everything would indicate that deck are better sounding, than a deck with a more wawing frequency response. I know it al depends on the listeners ears, and most would prefer a sound with a tad more treble and bass, but that is not the original sound.
iloveamps
"Back in my day..."
That is absolutely true, except I've had no problems finding the service manual for mine. I have a GX-260D, and I really like it. It has the typical noisy transistors, and of course the capacitors for the capstan motor popped when I first got it, but now that it's running well, it's really quite nice. The audio quality is pretty good, more than good enough if you're not doing careful listening. That's not why I have it, I have much nicer machines for that. The transport is nice as well, it operates quickly and smoothly. I like the symmetrical tape path, it records equally well in both directions.
The GX4000D is probably just as bad for repair, but I tossed that one in there as it is regarded as a machine that performed very well for its price point.
The reason I still like Akai machines even though I have/had much better is that they are nice machines to use. They typically have many features that were only available on the TOTL decks of their competitors. Also, I don't have to worry about burning out the motors or wearing out the heads on my nicer machines- Akai's glass heads wear the best out of anything out there, and their motors are known for being particularly robust. So it's kind of like a trade off to me- the audio quality isn't as great, and I may have to work on them more often, but I can let them run all day without concern. They are fun to have around. Mind you, I'm only talking about the soft-touch machines here- I wouldn't own a single motor mechanically controlled machine.
*Edit- I thought I should include that I actually just bought a GX-370D to have shipped to my dorm room. Apparently it has some sort of moving head, which I don't like the sound of, but I was looking for a nice project to have up at school so I ordered it. Even though I'm a TEAC loyalist, I somewhat ironically bought another Akai because I don't care too much if it gets messed up at school. Plus, it's one of Akai's few good looking machines and it supports a wired remote (which my 260D doesn't).
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captaingamez
Well-Known Member
I dont know if i would say they made some of the worst, teac made crappy decks too, they both had to to appeal to economy class.
this is %100 true though, Akais are a pain to repair, not just older ones.
mossfred
Member
Everyone here has valid points and observations. Here are my 2cents!
I use my spare time playing with my tape recorders and comparing them all.
Yes the reel to reels will at 0db record the highest frequencies without compression (no music that i own has much content at these extremes),but not many Reel to reel players will record flat down to 15hz at any level. All my Naks will do 15 to 22khz at minus 20db record level plus or minus 1db, my 1000ZXL tops out at 27khz! None of my reel to reels will do that, especially at 15ips! A Few of them have user adjustable bias and eq controls and even my machines that do i cannot get them from 20 to 20khz flat response within plus or minus 1db no matter how hard i try.
Many of us are noticing different things when we listen, soundstaging depth, timbre of the instruments etc, the thing that affects my ears is what i call tone, my ears are very sensitive to frequency response deviation...
If one looks at the frequency spectrum of the music that we record and play back the content at the higher frequencies is usually at a much lower level than the lower end so the compression in cassettes at the high frequency spectrum is not really a problem.
Tape formulations in cassette are far superior and on Sony Metal XR i can go plus 12db ref Dolby level at 315hz for 3% distortion on my best 3 head decks. For interest sake i will try and evaluate the distortion figures at 10k and 15k although i doubt that any decks will reproduce 0db or dolby level at anything above 10 to 12khz as we already agree. Reels do have the advantage for signal to noise ratio but a well set up cassette deck with dolby B will be about the same with virtually no degradation in sound. I hear pumping in DBX and cant listen to it.
Cassette tape CAN be a viable opponent to reel to reel in the home environment when the circumstances are right.
Reel players that i use are Sony TC880,765,756, Technics RS1520, Tandberg TD20 high speed, Revox B77 high speed, Otari MX5050, Akai 747,GX400, Teac/Tascam x2000,BR20 and Philips N4520.
Cassette decks are Nak 1000zxl, Dragon,ZX9,ZX7,CR7 and Technics RS965 modified by A.N.T
I use my spare time playing with my tape recorders and comparing them all.
Yes the reel to reels will at 0db record the highest frequencies without compression (no music that i own has much content at these extremes),but not many Reel to reel players will record flat down to 15hz at any level. All my Naks will do 15 to 22khz at minus 20db record level plus or minus 1db, my 1000ZXL tops out at 27khz! None of my reel to reels will do that, especially at 15ips! A Few of them have user adjustable bias and eq controls and even my machines that do i cannot get them from 20 to 20khz flat response within plus or minus 1db no matter how hard i try.
Many of us are noticing different things when we listen, soundstaging depth, timbre of the instruments etc, the thing that affects my ears is what i call tone, my ears are very sensitive to frequency response deviation...
If one looks at the frequency spectrum of the music that we record and play back the content at the higher frequencies is usually at a much lower level than the lower end so the compression in cassettes at the high frequency spectrum is not really a problem.
Tape formulations in cassette are far superior and on Sony Metal XR i can go plus 12db ref Dolby level at 315hz for 3% distortion on my best 3 head decks. For interest sake i will try and evaluate the distortion figures at 10k and 15k although i doubt that any decks will reproduce 0db or dolby level at anything above 10 to 12khz as we already agree. Reels do have the advantage for signal to noise ratio but a well set up cassette deck with dolby B will be about the same with virtually no degradation in sound. I hear pumping in DBX and cant listen to it.
Cassette tape CAN be a viable opponent to reel to reel in the home environment when the circumstances are right.
Reel players that i use are Sony TC880,765,756, Technics RS1520, Tandberg TD20 high speed, Revox B77 high speed, Otari MX5050, Akai 747,GX400, Teac/Tascam x2000,BR20 and Philips N4520.
Cassette decks are Nak 1000zxl, Dragon,ZX9,ZX7,CR7 and Technics RS965 modified by A.N.T
ssmith3046
Super Member
Great post. It's been at least 35 years since I owned a reel to reel and almost that long since I had owned my last cassette deck before I bought a Dragon last year. I finally found one that had been serviced by Willy Herman a couple of years ago and had the mint looks I wanted. All this for under a thousand so I jumped on it and haven't been sorry for spending the cash. I love the way it sounds and looks but most of all I love the convenience of cassettes. I might venture back into the reel to reel world one of these days but for now cassettes are working for me.
jan_stevns
Super Member
....but not many Reel to reel players will record flat down to 15hz at any level.
Unless you're a fan of organ music - it is utterly unimportant to reach down thereit is technical purely - not many instruments have notes in that area.
again - mostly of academical interrest , since the signal levels in the high notes are below 0dB, and quite often - there is no signal there - FM radio is cut at 15KHz, cd's are cut at 20Khz if not earlier from the studio.
A total other thing is if you are recording live sessions - on that topic, i havent heard a single casette deck usable - only halftrack 15Ips or faster (or digital decks) - casette decks can't handle the dynamic ~they sound compressed.
Some of the mentioned things are phase dependant - R2R decks are way better to keep the phase optimal than any casette deck is - mostly because of the tape itself - thinner and slower running tapes would by nature curl a little more than wider tape.
just my $ 0.02
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mossfred
Member
Hi Jan
I would argue that 20khz is as academic as 15hz, although i listen to music including electro house where bass does go deep!!
I agree Cassette is very limited for live work.... but for recording LP or FM no problem. I do however find it difficult to play my reels in my car but as soon as Nakdoc finishes refurbing my Nak TD 1000 and 700 i think i will be ok!!
I would argue that 20khz is as academic as 15hz, although i listen to music including electro house where bass does go deep!!
I agree Cassette is very limited for live work.... but for recording LP or FM no problem. I do however find it difficult to play my reels in my car but as soon as Nakdoc finishes refurbing my Nak TD 1000 and 700 i think i will be ok!!
KentTeffeteller
Gimpus Stereophilus!
If I had to depend on an Akai GX 77 or a worn out Magnecord PT6, I'd take the worn out PT6. It was at least designed to be easily repairable. FWIW, Akai GX heads are not all that some think they are. They are good heads, but they do get gap scatter and microcracks. And those were at times in machines with a lot less hours on them than worn but relappable ReVox and Otari heads which worked 18 hours a day in tape based broadcast automation systems. Sony's F&F heads I see fewer issues from wear out of than about any other consumer machine heads. AKAI is a maintenance pain in the rear at best even though they made very nice machines when functioning correctly. But I would much prefer repairing most any ReVox than any Akai even with the shortcomings and all of either.
mossfred
Member
Just for interests sake, the only Reel tape recorders that have let me down are the Revox B 77, Tandberg TD20 and the Philips 4520, in general the Japanese machines just keep on going.....but i have had to have some Sony Ferrite heads lapped
KentTeffeteller
Gimpus Stereophilus!
That said, the Sony Ferrite heads are relappable, Akai GX is not. For me, there are some Japanese machines better than others. On Akais, the 10 1/2" DD motor decks without cutesy loading systems are best. I love the Sony TC 850 a great lot, most all the Teac A series classics, but I like the Technics RS 1500 and family best of the semi pros or the Otari MX 5050 B II. What issues did your B 77 have? Most of what I ever dealt with were capacitor replacement or heads on very high hours decks. The Tandberg TD 20 tended to be superb sounding, but very finicky. The Philips was rarely seen in North America.
captaingamez
Well-Known Member
subjective, and bias, that is THE ONLY THING you just offered.
The gx-77 is not unreliable, im tired of hearing it, its a pile of BS, a big pile. SHOW ME PROOF????? and dont show me a bunch of idiots that cant figure out what the problem is with one. show me real unrepairable issues that they continuously develop, oh yea, thats right THERE ARENT ANY.
the microcracks issue i will ONLY believe when I see pictures, thus far YOU and everyone else that claims of things like "gap scatter" and "microcracks" has shown NO PROOF OF THIS EVER!. pictures sir? there are none.
tired of hearing akai being thrown around like its a dirt brand, also that is BS. Akai was in the business before teac, they got their tech originally from tandberg, they are not crap. teac made crap, akai made crap, tascam made crap, even tandberg and ampex made crap, seems everyone seems to forget this. isnt it a sign that akai sold more crap?, people obviously liked their "crap" i mean doesnt that just show they had more sales regardless of the inferiority or superiority of their units?
this thread is getting arduous , wasnt it regarding what decks are better? not what decks arent?
mossfred
Member
Hi Kent
With new tensioner belts the 747 works very well and its not as difficult to fix as everyone thinks.Theres a lot of talk Junking the Akais but to me they appear well built and have given no trouble, i have not had to service them so cannot comment on the electronics as such and they sound reasonable, if a little noisy but if you would ask me to choose between the 747 and X2000r, the Teac is a toy in comparison, heads wear fast, no adjustment on the headblock if you lap them ,DC motors etc etc. The Revox sounds better than the Tandberg, its overated in my opinion, loved only by Tandberg lovers.
My Revox has a speed stability problem,towards the end of the tape it gets faster then becomes erratic.
The Philips is an excellent sounding machine, probably near or at the top level of my decks, but not put together that well, broken at the moment!
As a collector, the TC850 is on my list, but i havn`t come across one just yet...or the non existent Marantz reel to reel that i keep hearing about!
Fred
