What symptoms are there when a Marantz needs a ReCap?
- Thread starter tommyjonBois
- Start date
The tire analogy holds for capacitors- old tires will come apart while you're driving down the highway, even if they have a lot of tread and look fine.
You would have to measure the values for every capacitor on each board to make the statement that replacing old capacitors is a waste of time and money.
I replaced all the capacitors on my Marantz 1200 because one of the channels would cut out and had a lot of distortion. Replaced the power transistors on the same channel as well. The ultimate test is sound. After doing the rebuild, the amp sounds great. Cost about $150 for all the parts and about 8 hours of my time. Good for another 30 years.
You would have to measure the values for every capacitor on each board to make the statement that replacing old capacitors is a waste of time and money.
I replaced all the capacitors on my Marantz 1200 because one of the channels would cut out and had a lot of distortion. Replaced the power transistors on the same channel as well. The ultimate test is sound. After doing the rebuild, the amp sounds great. Cost about $150 for all the parts and about 8 hours of my time. Good for another 30 years.
tommyjonBois
On the lookout always
@ Allegroconbrio - he did say that tiny impeccable differences in sound may arise after recapping but the vast majority of people would never tell the difference. He said someone that tunes musical equipment or the most highly demanding audiophile could discern from an uncapped unit to a freshly capped unit. That is the gist I got.
YES! He says that if it is working and the caps are within 20% of some specification, we are all fine and sound quality has no bearing. I will re-iterate, that he did agree that recapping a unit will seal its future reliability but only that.
Re-Capping has no value with sound performance on a working unit!.
My Marantz Receivers work fine and therefore - he feels they do not recapped.
Apologies if I stereotyped some of you. Just need a healthy discussion on RE-capping investments here.
YES! He says that if it is working and the caps are within 20% of some specification, we are all fine and sound quality has no bearing. I will re-iterate, that he did agree that recapping a unit will seal its future reliability but only that.
Re-Capping has no value with sound performance on a working unit!.
My Marantz Receivers work fine and therefore - he feels they do not recapped.
Apologies if I stereotyped some of you. Just need a healthy discussion on RE-capping investments here.
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I recapped just the power supply in my Marantz 2270 and there was a noticeable difference, especially in the lower frequencies. Prior to the recap, the bass was muddy and uncontrolled. After recap, the bass was much tighter and punchier.
You may want to ask your tech how much it would cost just to replace the electrolytics in the power supply - that should be minimal and the gains will be obvious.
You may want to ask your tech how much it would cost just to replace the electrolytics in the power supply - that should be minimal and the gains will be obvious.
SoundOfSound
Super Member
He said all this without measuring any caps??? :scratch2: ...There is more to a capacitor than capacitance.
http://www.digikey.com/Web Export/S...f-aluminum-electrolytic-caps.pdf?redirected=1
pete_mac
Super Member
I disagree wholeheartedly. The many, many recaps that I've undertaken have yielded sonic improvements, along wit the obvious improvement in long-term reliability.
Some comments I've received have been along the lines of "wow, this amp no longer has that muddy, warm, vintage sound... It now sounds much closer to my *insert modern amp name here* and is tighter and more detailed."
Each to their own I guess.
I did say that as a recording engineer, I'm trained to hear small differences in sound. I did not say that results of a recap would be apparent only to the "most highly demanding audiophile". Even if the advantages of recapping did not yield audible improvements (which I insist it does), the insurance it provides against catastrophic failure and potential damage to other components over time makes it well worth the effort.
I don't think recapping is an "audiophile" thing, if your stereotype of audiophile is one who thinks a $100 a foot speaker cable sounds better than standard 18 gauge zip cord, or that your cables need to be held off the floor with pricey minature telephone poles, or that we need to use a blue magic marker to paint the rim of our CDs. As a critical listener, and of scientific bent, I reject these notions. However, the audible benefits of recapping are a demonstratable fact.
FWIW, I've recapped a number of Marantz receivers including several 2230's, 2015, 2215b, 2220, 2240 and a 2245. With the exception of the 2245, the sound of which I didn't care much for before the recap, every one exhibited an improvement in sound quality ranging from more-than-subtle to dramatic.
Rich W
Electronic tech / engineer for 34 years here. I have done over a hundred receiver recaps. On maybe 10 of them the improvement was dramatic. Maybe 10 more sounded better. The other 80 or so will sound great FOR YEARS now. I do NOT have golden ears or training by the way so when I hear it the issue is very apparent!
fernarias
Super Member
I think your tech is pretty smart:
"Do I need a recap?" - wrong answer (for a tech) "Yes, and it's going to cost $600 for the 2270 and $850 for the 2285B." (Outraged by cost OP never goes back to that tech).
"Do I need a recap?" - right answer (for a tech) "Not really, you won't really hear a difference, longevity maybe, it's up to you." (one year or two of good listening and cap blows and OP goes back to tech and gets a $350 bill for four caps and continued business as OP thinks tech is mana sent from heaven).
Personally, I recap. I only play gear that's been recapped (why risk a valuable unobtainable part). I have recapped the following Marantz (recap, disassemble and cleaned switches, replace known problem parts, led upgrade, etc) 2230, 2235, 2235B, 2245, 2270, 2275. The 2230 wowed me. The 2245 and 2275 were significantly improved. The 2270 was the only one that seemed to sound better after burning it in (only one so far) and I didn't believe in that hooey. I had fun doing the work and still have many left to go.
"Do I need a recap?" - wrong answer (for a tech) "Yes, and it's going to cost $600 for the 2270 and $850 for the 2285B." (Outraged by cost OP never goes back to that tech).
"Do I need a recap?" - right answer (for a tech) "Not really, you won't really hear a difference, longevity maybe, it's up to you." (one year or two of good listening and cap blows and OP goes back to tech and gets a $350 bill for four caps and continued business as OP thinks tech is mana sent from heaven).
Personally, I recap. I only play gear that's been recapped (why risk a valuable unobtainable part). I have recapped the following Marantz (recap, disassemble and cleaned switches, replace known problem parts, led upgrade, etc) 2230, 2235, 2235B, 2245, 2270, 2275. The 2230 wowed me. The 2245 and 2275 were significantly improved. The 2270 was the only one that seemed to sound better after burning it in (only one so far) and I didn't believe in that hooey. I had fun doing the work and still have many left to go.
Why not find someone who believes in a recap and get the 2270 done? When it comes back, compare it to the 2252B. If it still sounds not-so-good, then the recap wasn't a factor. If it sounds better, then you know recapping can improve the sound. At worst, you can then sell the 2270 as "fully recapped."
I had an experience with an old Soundtracs recording mixer. I took it in for some repairs and one of the repairs was recapping the power supply. The tech asked if I'd like him to do the channels (16) as well. I couldn't afford that, so he said How about just doing channel one? Then I can see if there's a difference in sound.
Well, there was. Channel one sounded crisper, more lively and just overall better than the other chans.
So it may not work every time. But for my mixer the recap made an audible difference.
I had an experience with an old Soundtracs recording mixer. I took it in for some repairs and one of the repairs was recapping the power supply. The tech asked if I'd like him to do the channels (16) as well. I couldn't afford that, so he said How about just doing channel one? Then I can see if there's a difference in sound.
Well, there was. Channel one sounded crisper, more lively and just overall better than the other chans.
So it may not work every time. But for my mixer the recap made an audible difference.
xraelx74
AudioFool
I'm listening to my all original 2230 through my original Dynaco A-25's while reading this thread and i'm starting to worry that the whole rig will blow up at any moment!
I plan on keeping this set-up for as long as possible really, so i'd like to do a recap (especially for the A-25's, they're not so intimidating) but i don't have the skills required...i've got a great tech in town, but wouldn't it be crazy expensive to do?
Oh, and in response to the OP. If you don't want a recap don't get one...but it if you plan on keeping the gear the general consensus, regardless of what your tech says, is to get a recap. It just makes sense.
I plan on keeping this set-up for as long as possible really, so i'd like to do a recap (especially for the A-25's, they're not so intimidating) but i don't have the skills required...i've got a great tech in town, but wouldn't it be crazy expensive to do?
Oh, and in response to the OP. If you don't want a recap don't get one...but it if you plan on keeping the gear the general consensus, regardless of what your tech says, is to get a recap. It just makes sense.
jstang
Honey,I can't hear you...
More likely to get eaten by a land shark....
But I am a proponent of recapping.....
Jk
But I am a proponent of recapping.....Jk
Funny no one mentioned there is more to your initial question than just should I recap-----
Just changing caps is not the real deal.
What about those 40 year old trim pots
Cold solder joints
Known suspect transistors
Dried thermal compound
Incorrect bias, incorrect ps voltage
Tarnished connectors
Yellowed vellum
Etc etc
Comes down to what you want from your equipment.
-lee
Just changing caps is not the real deal.
What about those 40 year old trim pots
Cold solder joints
Known suspect transistors
Dried thermal compound
Incorrect bias, incorrect ps voltage
Tarnished connectors
Yellowed vellum
Etc etc
Comes down to what you want from your equipment.
-lee
I have acquired Marantz 2250B some time ago and I've been pondering on whether to recap this unit or not.
Before setting it up I decided to do some maintenance first. The unit appears to be in original condition.
Adjusting the R806 for 35V as in manual, then DC offset to zero and bias to 10mV.
So left channel was right on spot, no problems, but right channel was way off measuring the DC offset.
Further examination revealed H701 diode was loose and R708 had shorted. Replaced the R708 and R713 with fresh metal films, checked few diodes among H701 and removed at least C702, C705 and C706 caps for testing. All checked out fine on meter, precisely what you would expect to find out.
Then I removed the biggest caps from P800 for testing, I think 3 of them, which would certainly show some drifted values, considering this is 40 years old amp, but on the contrary these caps were also spot-on as what you would see from fresh new cap. Actually I put them all back, except one which had heat sourced charring on the outer case. As a matter of fact that also measured good. Lubricated the trimpots and some contact points, finished the adjustments for right channel and everything works as expected.
Now the Marantz as we speak is putting out great sound. Tremendous extended bass response, I could start a serious war with my neighbours, if I wanted. Now I believe the statement is true
I have recapped 5 units before and checking the caps on meter, most of them tested for very tired - out of spec.
I understood 'B' labeled Marantz amps are fitted with better caps, better power switch and revised circuitry.
It's funny, I was almost sure that I need to do a full recap on this, now I'm not so sure.
Is it true that the caps are that much better on B series?
Steven Tate
CEO Flat Forehead Soc.
There are many threads with opinions all over the map on when or if to recap vintage equipment. I had three Marantz receivers that I bought new in the 70's and I know how they are supposed to sound. Some people think the lack of highs that they hear in their equipment is the "warm" sound that Marantz was known for. It isn't. The warm sound was not due to a lack of high end response. It was something hard to describe, but you could hear the difference in a Marantz and, say, a Sansui or Pioneer at the time. I play guitar, and I compare it to Gibson vs. Fender sound. The Gibson is warm with it's double coil pickups and the Fender is brilliant and harsh at the same time with its single coil pickups. Neither is better - they are just different. Now that I am occasionally refurbishing a 22xx receiver, it is easy to compare before and after. In every case there is a noticeable increase in brilliance after a recap. Is it non-original? I don't think so. I think the combined effect of all of those old caps - especially the filter caps - is a slow loss of high frequency reproduction that gives a dull sound compared to original. With a recap, I always feel like I have close to the original sound, which is somehow warm sounding, but true to the music across the spectrum. Just my two cents - and that's about what it's worth.
Ive had 15 recaps done some didnt sound any different some had more punch a few it was like night and day difference but none of them sounded worse. and i feel better knowing they are sounding like they should and should stay that way for a long time.
Old thread.
Recap, restore, upgrade, ...
Original design, component quality, and environment play as important a role as time.
If the unit is perfect, was recapped last year, but some of the known-problem parts are still installed (diodes, transistors, etc.) then your unit is still not long-term reliable, recap=worthless. This is the case with many ebay recapped units IMO.
If the unit was used extensively (on for 8-10hours a day), in a hot environment (garage system non-A/C), run hard, ... you should not wait "20-30 years" to re-cap. Some models are prone to heat-related problems.
If the unit has some design issues where some capacitors run very hot (my 2325 had baked electrolytics on the PS board, as did my Pioneer SA-9900), they should be checked and/or replaced when they show signs of heat degradation (and solder joints inspected) regardless of the age of these components.
The unit should be inspected at least, any components that are known problem components (search these forums) should be replaced, and any parts that have evidence of heat-degradation, leaks, swelling, shrunken wrap, cracks, discoloration.
As mentioned above, some components need to be replaced as part of a proper restoration because they're either critical, flawed designs, or known failures. Although your Tech might know audio, without specific knowledge of (or research into) your model/equipment he will not know all that is necessary to properly restore your gear.
Recap, restore, upgrade, ...
Original design, component quality, and environment play as important a role as time.
If the unit is perfect, was recapped last year, but some of the known-problem parts are still installed (diodes, transistors, etc.) then your unit is still not long-term reliable, recap=worthless. This is the case with many ebay recapped units IMO.
If the unit was used extensively (on for 8-10hours a day), in a hot environment (garage system non-A/C), run hard, ... you should not wait "20-30 years" to re-cap. Some models are prone to heat-related problems.
If the unit has some design issues where some capacitors run very hot (my 2325 had baked electrolytics on the PS board, as did my Pioneer SA-9900), they should be checked and/or replaced when they show signs of heat degradation (and solder joints inspected) regardless of the age of these components.
The unit should be inspected at least, any components that are known problem components (search these forums) should be replaced, and any parts that have evidence of heat-degradation, leaks, swelling, shrunken wrap, cracks, discoloration.
As mentioned above, some components need to be replaced as part of a proper restoration because they're either critical, flawed designs, or known failures. Although your Tech might know audio, without specific knowledge of (or research into) your model/equipment he will not know all that is necessary to properly restore your gear.
