When is an Ariston a Linn Sondek LP 12?

Status
Not open for further replies.
Very little about Linn is straight down the road. Regarding 00005 it stands to reason that from 40+ years ago some parts will have been subbed. That foam looks well old. Why would anyone go stuffing rotten foam into springs to make it look oldie. Most scammers are not that well informed.
I've taken the foam out of many an Oracle Delphi and Alex to make the springs work.
In spite of that if Ivor had a clue what he was doing he would have made the subsequent upgrades much earlier.
Like sealing the bearing properly so it didn't leak oil , I mean please WTF ?
 
Like sealing the bearing properly so it didn't leak oil , I mean please WTF ?


And how. Those crimped jobs were shite. The RD11 job was oil-tight though. I suspect the first 'official' LP12s with the Radiospares rocker-switch were cost-cut compared to Hamish's originals.
 
Fess up , I worked there for a year prob 1975. They didn't have a clue what they were making or doing. I can elaborate..
 
Actually all Hamish did was design a beefed up THORENS td 150 which he used to sell from his business in Kilmarnock Road Glasgow. He went to Castle Eng as a jobbing machining works to get parts made. Thats the story right there. Castle was no more than a sub contractor.
 
Last edited:
Fess up , I worked there for a year prob 1975. They didn't have a clue what they were making or doing. I can elaborate..

Fascinating! What did you do there?

Actually all Hamish did was design a beefed up THORENS td 150 which he used to sell from his business in Kilmarnock Road Glasgow. He went to Castle Eng as a jobbing machining works to get parts made. Thats the story right there. Castle was no more than a sub contractor.

They always were and still are. Subcontractors. They didn't make Singer sewing machines back then, nor land-speed-record cars now. Just bits for them.

Linn is now a separate company though. Obviously formed by Jack as a vehicle to give Ivor, a dropped-out student at Strathclyde university, a job... and he was bloody good at it. The job was marketing. I very much doubt that he knows one end of a lathe from another. As MD of Linn, he was always entertaining, outspoken and engaging, although I've listened to his recent droning lectures and he appears to have lost his 'spark'. Enter his successor (I think we'll gloss over the Peter Murphy years which were disastrous) the seemingly clueless, dull and un-engaging Boy Gilad, who despite a degree in electronics (presumably a completed one) appears to have no clue about his own subject. Still up on the web are his erroneous observations about Compact Disc where he talks about 'dynamic range' in 'KHz' (sic) which illustrates his apparent ignorance, indifference, and almost certainly the lack of a decent copy editor at Linn HQ.

https://www.linn.co.uk/blog/the-disc-is-dead-why-cd-shouldnt-live-forever

Despite all this, which is richer and more entertaining than Colin Dexter's rather similar script for 'The Dead of Jericho' I remain a fan of some Linn products, and have great respect for some of the engineers there from the 1980s who were actually innovative. At times ironically more so in the field of digital audio than record deck making. The LP12 itself is great, but so was the 401, many other belt drive machines, some Japanese DDs etc etc... The LP12's (read RD11 maybe) success is deserved. Its *exclusive* success which it enjoyed for many years certainly isn't.
 
Last edited:
So the crying incident was referenced in an Adrian Hope column

https://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/threads/sondek-lp12-arm-options.208572/page-5

That's it. Bear in mind that this was a trade only part of the Harrogate show and in the evening in the bar of the Majestic hotel. Plenty of good folks saw what happened.


Allow me to give you an example of what went on. I was charged with the task of straightening sub chassis. Dozens and dozens of them. If they were not flat , judged with a straight edge the process was simply to put then on the edge of a table and give the culprit a push in the appropriate direction till it became flat.. These were the subs with the strengthening channel spot welded on. The problem was caused by the welding process as the raw chassis plates were true. I made the suggestion to the production manager that it might be better to epoxy them in place and was told curtly that that would ruin the sound.
You will know the date better than I but some years later they caved in and with great fanfare and claims of sonic improvements , they glued them on.
Hmmm
 
Last edited:
That's it. Bear in mind that this was a trade only part of the Harrogate show and in the evening in the bar of the Majestic hotel. Plenty of good folks saw what happened.


Allow me to give you an example of what went on. I was charged with the task of straightening sub chassis. Dozens and dozens of them. If they were not flat , judged with a straight edge the process was simply to put then on the edge of a table and give the culprit a push in the appropriate direction till it became flat.. These were the subs with the strengthening channel spot welded on. The problem was caused by the welding process as the raw chassis plates were true. I made the suggestion to the production manager that it might be better to epoxy them in place and was told curtly that that would ruin the sound.
You will know the date better than I but some years later they caved in and glued them on.
Hmmm
According to that Pink Fish page, one account had Ivor crying the other acount had Hamish crying. Which one is the truth of what took place?
 
Uploaded here are scans of advertisements for Thermac. They are taken from my photocopies of bound library copies of the magazines. I also include the 1979 article about the dispute but it does not really provide much info. Note from the advertisements that there was an address change for Thermac. Also included is the 1972 Ariston advertisement where Thermac is not listed either in the advertisement or in the adjacent list of Scottish advertisers.

I have not seen any indication that Thermac was involved in the heating business but from the name then that is plausible. Also Dunlop-Westayr manufactured storage heaters so may be why Hamish chose to move the production there.Image1.jpg Image1.jpg Image2.jpg Image3.jpg Image4.jpg Image5.jpg Image6.jpg
 
If the process for patent hearings in 1976/77 was anything like the modern approach then it was probably an inter partes hearing. These require statements from those involved and supporting evidence to be gathered in advance of the hearing and shared with the other parties. Evidence consists of witness statements and supporting documents or material.

Firstly Hamish Robertson would have submitted his version to the Comptroller detailing the matters at issue, the facts upon which he was relying and the remedy sought.

The statement from Hamish would then have been passed to Jack Tiefenbrun. He would have had several weeks to reply with his counter statement. This would have stated which allegations he denied and why. He probably could have done this by including his different version of the events or by directly addressing the Hamish submission. He would have been expected to state which of the Hamish allegations he admitted to and which allegations he couldn't deny but needed Hamish to prove. If he did not contest something in the Hamish statement then the default was that the allegation was agreed.

The counter statement from Jack would then have been passed to Hamish for him to decide whether to continue. Hamish would then respond to the counter statement indicating what he agreed with and what he would contest in the same way as Jack had to respond to the initial submission.

Some further iteration between the sides may have taken place but statements would normally only be amended with the permission of the Comptroller. The intent is for both sides to go into the hearing on an equal footing with regard to the statements and evidence and to allow the hearing to focus on what was being contested. New evidence is not supposed to be submitted in the hearing itself though there is an indication that Hamish may have done this when he brought up the Harrogate 1973 confrontation with Ivor.

I uploaded copies of the Hi-Fi News coverage by Adrian Hope (aka Barry Fox) in my previous post which includes the following summary of the background provided by the Patent Officer.

"The Officer saw the nub of the disputed invention as the point contact bearing formed by the conical end of the platter spindle. And it was agreed all round that this, by minimising rumble was indeed the nub of the invention. The Hearing Officer then went on to summarize the train of events that led up to the current marketing of Linn turntables. To the best of my knowledge this has not previously been crystallised, so thanks are due to the officer for his delightfully clear summary of the situation.

Indeed, anyone both puzzled by and interested in the history of the Ariston-Linn saga need look no futher than the Hearing Officer's main decision for a full breakdown of the extraordinary facts surrounding this unique episode in Audio History.

To summarize the summary: Jack Tiefenbrun formed Castle Precision Engineering (Glasgow) Ltd. 15 years ago. Hamish Robertson had a company called Thermac in 1967 which became Ariston in 1970 and Ariston Audio in 1973. In 1970 Jack Tiefenbrun's son Ivor Tiefenbrun bought some Hi-Fi equipment and became friendly with Hamish Robertson. Ivor Tiefenbrun made a prototype turntable with a ball bearing and then went off to Israel in 1971. While Ivor was away, Jack Tiefenbrun and Hamish Robertson changed the ball bearing to a point bearing. Robertsons's company Thermac then ordered some 40 such units from Castle. Now as Ariston, Robertson then planned a display of the units for Harrogate in September 1971. C. W. and J Walker were appointed selling agents for the turntable- by now christened the RD11. The turntable was indeed shown at Harrogate that year and the RD11 sales literature boasted "a unique single point bearing" and "almost rumble free sound". The next year (1972) Jack Tiefenbrun filed the two provisional patent specifications on which the disputed patent (BP 1 394 611) was finally to issue. By the end of that year (1972) there had been a deteriation, and finally a breakdown, of relationships between Robertson and Ariston on one hand and the Tiefenbrun's on the other. This culminated with a threat to Robertson that a copyright action would be brought against him if he had the RD11 turntable made elsewhere than at Castle by Tiefenbrun. In February 1973 Linn Products Ltd. was formed to sell single-point bearing turntables made by Castle. Ariston was then taken over by Dunlop Westayr Ltd. and the separate firm Fergus Fons formed with Robertson as director. As we have already seen, it was Fons and Robertson and not Ariston-Dunlop-Westayr, who attacked the Tiefenbrun patent claims.".

It can be deduced from this summary that Jack must have submitted a statement which claimed the initial development of the turntable was a prototype by Ivor. It is also clear that in the view of the Patent Officer the Tiefenbrun version prevailed so it probably had some corroboration.

Ivor has since named former Castle staff who helped him with the development. "The design benefited from the input of my late father who designed the patented single point bearing and from the key engineering staff at Castle Precision Engineering, my late father’s company, including John Cross, Bob Hamond, George Borthwick and the late Russell Christie and Edgar Clumpas who all enthusiastically helped me with this ‘lunchtime’ project, along with many other employees at Castle".

Also elsewhere Ray Collins, a former Castle employee not named by Ivor above told Nigel Pearson that he helped Ivor with the development.

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/the-lounge/200865-sound-quality-vs-measurements-1553.html

It is not clear from the Hi-Fi News coverage if Hamish actually submitted his own alternative version of how the turntable was developed but by introducing the Harrogate 73 confrontation it appears he was contesting that the development was done by Ivor. All the versions on the web that attribute the design to Hamish start with him approaching the Tiefenbrun's with "his" design but do not address the prior development and where it was done. The only thing I have seen pertinent to the development is that Hamish told at least one person that the turntable was based on an AR XA. It was acknowledged by the Tiefenbrun's that Hamish was responsible for the styling and the XA does have platters that look cosmetically similar although the inner platter has a totally different diameter. The spring arrangement is rotated and different, has no armboard or cross brace and a totally different t-bar sub chassis. The development of the turntable based directly on an XA if true would have required access to workshop machine tools and would have required effort and time. Apparently Hamish was unable to provide much if any of his own evidence that he developed the turntable and bearing with one of his most prominent and vocal supporters saying that this was the fault of Castle for "losing" that paperwork. For the types of business transactions described by Hamish supporters we should expect product specifications, quotes, orders, correspondence and receipts with copies held by both sides so the apparent inability of Hamish to produce his own copies of such paperwork must be a concern.
 
Just a wee check list of the brands that Hamish had at Thermac. From memory
Quite high end for it's day , and this was no silly high street shop unit , it was a plush sandstone villa in a posh neighborhood on the south side of Glasgow. The demo room was what would normally be the lounge

Ariston
Thorens
Cambridge Audio
LNB
IMF ( I think )
Rogers
Radford
Quad
SME
Sugden
 
Macaroonie - The addresses are in the advertisements and are viewable on street view. You appear to be describing the later address.
 
The house was called Chartwell or something similar if memory serves. Indeed it is on Fenwick road not Kilmarnock road although one is an extension of the other. I did have a look on street view but the wall and hedges are too big to get a good view of the house.
 
Last edited:
cre009’s research is fascinating, but what doesn’t tally with it are Ivor’s various claims that Castle built either 50 or 150 of the ‘first batch’ of RD11s
and the others were ‘built elsewhere ‘.

There are very obviously Castle built RD11s turning up with serial numbers well into the 600s and the yellow stickers etc. Not to mention the growing number of rebadged RD11s appearing with Linn Sondek logos.

Then there’s the bemused and confused BoyGilad stating plainly that the RD11 was an OEM LP12.
 
An interesting twist is that the white plastic sticker on RD11 00006nn that I have seen has the words “Ariston Audio” sliced off the bottom, so could there have been a chance that Castle were building them for Dunlop Westayr at the time of Hamish’s split from them? As has been said, the court case was between Linn and Hamish/Fergus Fons Ltd.

I’ll see if I can find pics later.
 
As has been well established the RD11 was on the market for 2 years + before a Linn ever surfaced.
Gilad seems to have slipped his moorings on this subject. Since he would have been at best an infant when all this was going on all his info has to have come from you know who.

My main objection to the whole episode is the vice like grip Linn had on the hi fi press. I know how it was done but it was very much to the detriment of the industry. Once the silly system came about it just got worse.
NAD3020 for example , a truly woeful amp with an appalling reliability record but it got recommended everywhere. Bested easily by any HK , Onkyo , Marantz etc
Naim Nait pfffst Try an ONIX OA21 and so on. The public were being conned big time and still are.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top Bottom