Where did all our industry go?

[jshorva65]

In another thread where I touched on this subject, I mentioned starting another thread in "Off Topic" where I reveal the results of my research into America's gradual de-industrialization. Between posts to that thread and email responses, I found about a 1:1 ratio of agreement to disagreement and of approval to disapproval.

A quick intro is that the demise first of our consumer electronics industry, then our steel industry, current attempts to destroy the auto industry, and the gradual erosion of civil liberties are part of a concept called the Straussian Dialectic of Bolshevism whereby a perpetual state of crisis (recession, war, crime, inflation, etc.) is deliberately created and maintained in order to justify the expansion of the power of a central government. The concept is entirely too large to attempt to put into a single post and I'm just about to go back to work after lunch. I'll read what's going on when I return from a weekend road trip, as I have considerable work to do today and tomorrow.

Dubya's stupid remarks are just one symptom of a much larger problem. I'll get further into that later. The history of crooked politricians goes MUCH farther back.

If anyone else has researched this subject, perhaps other comments could be added. My own opinion is that there are many people among the vintage electronics community who miss the good ol' days when all the great gear was made right here in the USA and a plausible explanation is long overdue.

Please refrain from bashing each other in replies here and stick to the subject. The main issue here is greed and crooked politicians and it's bigger than even I imagined. This research has been my after-hours project ever since I was told at a local business association meeting about a year ago that my best bet would be to give up all hope of doing any manufacturing in a domestic facility let alone creating jobs of that kind in my own neighborhood. That didn't sit right with me, so I started digging.

 

[jay]

jshorva, remember back in 1992, when Ross Perot was running for Prez? The one memorable thing he said was,

"If NAFTA and GATT pass there'll be a giant sucking sound as jobs move overseas"

Or words to that effect. He might have been a turkey in other ways, but he correctly predicted the very thing we're seeing now!

Like you said elsewhere, both Clinton and the Republicans sold the country out on that one! :uzi:

 

[Chad Hauris]

I think that part of the problem re: manufacturing is that:
1. Foreign countries such as China that can manufacture products with much lower labor costs are now equipped with the technology to produce products such as electronics for export, whereas say in the 50's, they were not.

2. Technological "advances" allowing for a cheap product to be made that still works after a fashion have totally destoyed the market for a well built product. Look at a 1920's radio or a 1940's TV, these products are very substantial and well built. As technology advanced, it was figured out how much you could cut out and still have a functioning product.

You couldn't build a TV, DVD player, etc. with robust last-for-30 years or more construction built by American union labor these days as it would cost so much no one would buy it! People are too focused on price only. Plus there is planned obsolescence so that even if a product keeps working after 7 or 10 years such as a computer you can't get software, etc. for it anymore.

 

[THOR]

I live in Maine and in the past 2 years 4 (or is it more?) of the giant paper mills that were the livlihood of 1000's for decades have closed. A Sylvania plant here in Bangor is closing and moving to Mexico. What is a business gonna do? Stay in America paying a worker $14 an hour plus benefits or move to Mexico and pay a worker $2 an hour with no benefits to do the same work?

Ross Perot never spoke truer words.

In my grad classes my Professors talk about America moving from a manufacturing economy to a service industry like it is a natural evolution thing. So I work in the Mental Health industry so one of the services we provide is is services to all the displaced workers now needing help with depression, addictions etc. Is that the evolution they are thinking of?

 

[House de Kris]

Originally posted by jshorva65
....the good ol' days when all the great gear was made right here in the USA.....

Did I miss something? I thought the gear coming out of the USA was STILL great. Did something change?

Back on topic, although it is fun, and almost always right, to blame the politicians, I think a huge amount of responsibility here sits squarely with the consumer. When choosing products, people will almost always go for the cheaper item, not the one that ensures job security.

 

[merrylander]

HdK,

You got that right, as long as people buy imports over our products, the industry will continue shipping jobs off-shore because they can't compete. Someone once described GM as a welfare organization that also build cars. The healtcare costs for their employees are stupendous. Yet every time someone suggests a Single Payer Plan everybody screams 'socialism'. I was trying to explain to someone why Canada's plan was not socialistic - it is simply because they only pay the bills, they don't tell you what doctor to see, at least they never did that to me.

Am I a Liberal, damn straight. I am also a christian and believe that yes, I am my brother's keeper, at least that is what He taught. YMMV

Rob

BTW, I was a memberof the Conservative party in Canada but the GOP would not have me here, said I was not mean enough:

 

[Delshadowrio]

I have been in the automotive business for 20 years. Making car interiors for the big three. I have spent 10 years of my career in Mexico doing the same work. As Thor said, direct labor is $2.00 an hour. Although i am the only US citizen in my plant. I have seen the indirect or managment salaries increase to that of the States. Also the indirect costs meaning rent, electricity, water and employee transportation, which we supply to ensure the workers come to work is also equal to the States in many cases cost more, even office supplies. Nafta is not all duty free.
Add the corruption in the official offices and the rising cost of medical care which is provided by the manufacturer along with the cost administration fees to pay the corporate service support in the States that Thor also mentioned. It is not as attractive as it was ten years ago. I have seen 7 companies close in the past year due to the costs of doing business in Mexico. That is 7 out of 30 companies in the Mexican town where I run my company. China has swooped in and offered the industry world with even cheaper labor. I think .50 cents per day and can give full service for less than half of the US. I am seeing alot of industry moving in that direction now. Ten years ago China could offer the labor but could not offer the technology and support groups to maintain it. I had the fear of Jobs being lost when Mexico was hot, However, at that time I could see that the US had full control over its destiny by managing it. Prices still did not go down, they did not even stay the same. In the automotive industry, I see waste that would drive you nuts. We all pay for it when we buy cars. Lets see if we can manage our industries in China and maintain quality and cost. After that where do we go?

MM

 

[kavakidd]

I hate to burst any bubbles but - it's called the free market - and it is what has made America the great nation it is. When I was a lad everyone posited the same fears about how automation was going to be the demise of society as we knew it. Can you imagine, for example, what your car might be like and what it might cost today without automation??

Kindly remember that the biggest cause of the Great Depression was protectionism in the guise of the Smoot-Hawley Tariff Act.

Free trade is with us to stay and-over time-we will ALL benefit hugely from it. Just think - when the Chinese and Mexicans have money to spend, they can spend it on our technology.

 

[Delshadowrio]

Great point. I am not complaining, Just sharing. If it was not for free trade, I do not know what I would be doing now. I took advantage of it for my personal reasons. And many will for years to come. Yes the Mexicans and Chinese will spend money if they are permitted to spend it by their governments. Meaning the common folk. In Mexico, to finance a new vehicle they need 20-30% down and payoff in two years. I can't speak for China. I simply do not know. I know bikes are plentiful there.

MM

 

[Thatch_Ear]

I shop at the Dollar Store because some of the Chinese goods are very useful and for the price expendable.
It is what I call the Wallmart syndrome. Part of the dollar I spend keeps the shop owner solvent and his kids go to school, part of the money goes to China, with an extremly small amount going to the worker who made it allowing him to stay solvent and his kids to go to school.
What does Wallmart have to do with this? Well Wallmart will move into an area and tell the residents that by building a Wallmart there is will help the local economy by providing jobs and tax revenues. Part of the money trickles back to the people that made the goods sold there and if you can get a position higher than the regular emplorees that work in Wallmart you can actually afford to shop there, but for the most part the money generated in sales in Wallmart leave the community and go to corporate headquarters in Arkansas. The average worker at Wallmart can't afford to buy all they need there because the wages are not high enough and Wallmart sells things cheap enough that local businesses go broke all the time the dollars are leaving the area.
Right now China is the world's Wallmart. As education goes up, the birthrate will decline, there won't be enough working people to pay for the elderly (just exactly what is happening here and in Japan now) and the jobs will go to the next area where the young out number the elderly, Africa.
Mean time the industrialised countries keep a lock on the advances in technology and education and if the youth to elderly ratio gets back to what is needed for industrial jobs, the jobs will return. The birthrate in the US has been declining and the largest elderly population in history is about to enter the welfare state and the only thing that is keeping the country from collapsing is that we have a growing population from immigration.
As the global economy expands the better the patent protection laws will be able to be enforced and the US economy can stay strong. China and India are in for bad times, no matter how many jobs go there now simply from the birth and death trends.
According to a study that was aired on PBS based on birth rates, length of life and education the US will remain the dominant power in the world, while Africa will become the future manufacturing center of the world.
Believe it?
Other than technology I think the number one export from the US is movies. Course those are pirated too.

 

[jshorva65]

The problem, according to my research, is that the means for developing industry in nations where the unfair advantage of super-cheap labor existed was deliberately handed to those nations through backroom deals in which the American worker's best interests were sold out by the very people he or she had elected to look out for those interests. The industrialization of backward nations and de-industrialization of America is a part of the previously-mentioned Straussian Dialectic of Bolshevism known as the Point-Four Program or Colombo Plan. The destruction of industry accomplishes a key goal of Marxism (aka Bolshevism, Socialism, Communism) namely the "liquidation of the bourgoisie" which is the elimination of the middle classes. The elimination of industrial jobs certainly forces many middle-class people deep into poverty. Bolshevism, by its very nature, is an oligarchial system in which an impoverished majority becomes subject to the iron-fisted rule of a scandalously-wealthy elite and is characterized by an insurmountable gap between rich and poor. An oligarchy is defined as the rule of many by few. The Soviet Union, East Germany, Cuba, North Korea, China, etc. were or are all obvious oligarchies.

Another characteristic of Bolshevism is that its official religion is atheism. In the Soviet Union, 65 million Christians were murdered between 1917-1945 and my great-grandparents were among those few who managed to escape with their lives before the Iron Curtain would have trapped them. I owe my very existence to the fact that the 1905 Bolshevik Invasion and some rarely-mentioned earlier attempts to implement Marxism failed. The atheist Bolsheviks even mocked the faith of the Christians they were butchering by using crucifixion as the manner in which some were put to death for their faith. Most who refused to surrender their homes and property, particularly those who resisted without overtly expressing their faith, were simply shot. I hold a special contempt for the likes of Trotsky, Lenin, Stalin et al and for the modern-day American neo-Bolshevik elements who are currently de-industrializing my beloved America while nullifying the Bill of Rights and establishing atheism as the official religion here in direct violation of the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment after their success in violating the Free Exercise Clause with the banning of prayer in schools some time ago.

Senator Joseph McCarthy, President John F. Kennedy, Revilo P. Oliver, and others who were knowledgeable regarding the Bolshevik threat had only exposerd the tip of the iceberg in their time. Kruschev's often-quoted "We will bury you!" threat was quoted out of its full context. The 1950's-era Soviet dictator said much more which is not often quoted. He went on to say "We will spoon-feed Socialism to your children. Your grandchildren will live under Communism." The enemies of Western civilization knew that America could not be taken by force and must instead be dismantled from within. This is what our corrupt politicians and corporate elite have been doing to us for decades.

Much of the problem is a seven-member international banking cartel (a banking oligopoly) which controls the value of the dollar by means of the Federal Reserve. Few know that the Federal Reserve is NOT a department of the Federal government. The name is deliberately deceptive. Instead of issuing currency in gold and silver coin as the Constitution specifies, it is ordered from the Federal Reserve by the US Treasury as a LOAN. As the multi-trillion-dollar debt accrues interest and as more loans are issued, the value of the dollar fluctuates in an overall trend of declining value. This is the reason why prices and wages continually ratchet upward at often-different rates. The value of the dollar of 1904 is equivalent in 2004 currency to a whopping $25 because of this. In other words, what $1 would buy in 1904 now costs $25. A 2004 US dollar has a value of $0.04 (4 cents) in comparison to the value of a dollar in 1904. This is why "penny arcade" games now cost a quarter to play.

The declining birthrate is a function of hard economic times. Responsible people breed only as many children as we can afford to support ... I have one of my own and helped to support two stepchildren. I chose wisely when choosing who the mother of my son would be, I chose an intelligent woman. We had different ideas, ultimately, but we remained friend. Likewise, I chose wisely when I chose someone whose children from her previous marriage I took into my home. The irresponsible breed irresponsibly and dysgenically. The responsible will choose someone who is roughly equal in intelligence and abilities to himself or herself. The irresponsible are the ones who go "Ooops, pregnant again." Propaganda of mass media and education teaches us (falsely) that it is somehow wrong to insist on making a choice of a wife or husband wisely. There's more to the choice than "Oooh, she's got a nice a**!" or "Wow, he's cute!" Our best-educated, most-intelligent and most-responsible citizens end up having the fewest children. This is also a goal of Bolshevism. Fewer births among the best and brightest of the majority means fewer among the population they intend to enslave who might actually identify and resist the coming of the planned tyranny.

Next, we touch on the Bolshevik motto of "to each according to need, from each according to ability" as we analyze the Tax System and the Welfare State. Our Constitution specifies that only indirect taxation is permissible. In 1913, the unconstitutional 16th Amendment was passed to circumvent the protections which the Founders had wisely included in the blueprint for the new nation they were creating. A heavy, progressive income tax is one of the ten planks of Karl Marx's Communist Manifesto. Our tax system is designed to punish achievement. Indirect taxation is a far superior means of generating revenue to operate the essential functions of a nation. I just paid my rax bill for last year about a month ago. Just a few days ago, the four months of the year which I spend working entirely to cover the year's tax obligations just ended. Now, we discuss the Welfare State. Just as the Tax System punishes achievement, the Welfare State is designed to reward failure. For a Welfare recipient, having more children increases the size of that recipient's entitlement. One person referred to Social Security as "the Welfare State" which is only partially correct. The funding for the two programs comes from different sources (different tax line items). Why is it that the 535 members of the US Congress do not pay into the system and have their own (free for them, paid for by us) golden-parachute pension plan? These crooks collect their full salary for life, adjusted for inflation, and we, not they, foot the bill. Is this fair?

What each of us needs to do is find the time to research the voting records of officials from our districts. Reward those who support legislation which is good for our interests with our vote when it comes time to consider whether or not that individual deserves re-election. Punish those who deliberately screw us by keeping track of what they do and voting accordingly. Encourage others to likewise use their right to vote very wisely. This applies to officials we elect to office at Federal, State, County and Municipal levels. Some of us may say "I have no time to do that much extra work." Those of us with children, however, have a responsibility to FIND time to do it so that the nation we hand over to our children and grandchildren is in better condition than when it was handed to us.

 

[ProAc_Fan]

You must be an Art Bell listener!! Oligarchies and free masonry and 1 world government its all B.S. if you ask me.


Mike

 

[tentoze]

Originally posted by ProAc_Fan
You must be an Art Bell listener!! Oligarchies and free masonry and 1 world government its all B.S. if you ask me.


Mike

Amen. I guess aluminum foil hats are the best line of defense against those insidious, evil Bolsheviks storming the beaches and banks across the nation.

 

[Thatch_Ear]

The US won't allow the unindustrialised countries to create industries because the green house effect from our cars prohibits the pollution that industrialisation would incure, we basically have already taken their natural resources while bankrupting their economies and any industrialisation done will be owned by us if and when we take advantage of the young male population of Africa.
The World Bank Organisation might be run by a pannel in the UN, but the bank itself is right down the street from the White House and we own it.
When you get right down to it the US Federal Reserve is not owned by the US but by individuals. If you think Greenspan is an employee of the US government you have it backwards.
Once a president did try to nationalize the Federal Reserve. His name was John F. Kennedy.
Now aint that a kick in the ass?

 

[ProAc_Fan]

Tentoze either an aluminum hat or a C.Crane wind up shortwave radio. I swear Art Bell is nothing but a low payed huckster with the worlds most gullible audience.

 

[jshorva65]

Originally posted by ProAc_Fan
You must be an Art Bell listener!! Oligarchies and free masonry and 1 world government its all B.S. if you ask me.


Mike

Actually, I've never heard of Art Bell. I get my information from reading. I read quite a bit on the Internet, and then I check the facts cited in the Internet articles by verifying the sources cited by the articles' authors. My son has read the Federalist Papers recently and quotes James Madison, Thomas Jefferson, John F. Kennedy and others on several Web pages he has created. Kennedy's attempt to nationalize the Federal Reserve and to force Israel to allow weapons inspections got him shot by an as-yet-unidentified sniper. For Oswald to have fired the fatal shot, the bullet would have had to change direction several times in order to strike Kennedy in the manner it did. That's why it was imperative that Oswald not survive to stand trial. High-stakes money and power struggles breed wild conspiracies. What we are expected to believe, however, are insane coincidence theories. If what we've been told for decades were true, the evidence wouln't be Classified.

 

[Thatch_Ear]

I have never heard of Art Bell. I just make this shit up as I go along because it is just as true as anything else. Actually I pretty much keep up with current events from watching Leno and Letterman. If it is important enough sooner or later they will comment on it.
Propoganda is propoganda no matter the source and nobody writes anything without a reason. Anything Jefferson, Franklin and their pals got put into print had a motive behind it. Unless you posotively know the motivation it is propoganda taken as gospel while not understanding the reason.


The Bible Says ItI Believe It
And Thats That!!


Ever see one of those bumper stickers?

 

[merrylander]

Go back a few years, say to the fifties. Things were good, the government passed the veterans education bill (socialism?) and many vets took advantage and this led to the development of our high technology sector.

This is a consumer driven economy (which many seem to have forgotten) and we bought our own products and did not worry too much about exports. Unions (like them or not) got decent working conditions and hours.

[ As an aside, while closing on our property the subject of child labor came up (don't ask me how) and the seller's lawyer said 'What's wrong with child labor'. Well if you feel that 12 year old kids should be in coal mines, nothing I guess.]

Anyway, things were pretty good, we were turning out good engineers, technology was advancing, and the future looked great. Then along came all the pundits telling us how great Japanese cars were (J.D. Power), and the slide started.

We had a made in China telephone, POC, but at the time when I needed to buy one that was all there was. Well I finally found a Panasonic made in Mexico (still can't find one made here, but I have some Nortel spares that were made either here or in Canada), but tell me about Chinese quality.

We drive a pair of Chevrolet Impalas and I will stick with US built (well actually Oshawa, Canada) cars. My wife taught English in Japan in the 60's and if I brought home a Toyota she would set fire to it in the driveway before she would let it in the garage.

And yes, I do look for the Union Label, they did this nation a hell of a lot more good than the tycoons ever did. Saw a letter in Newsweek defending the big tax breaks for the top 2%, saying "well they are the ones who invest money and create jobs', and I thought to myself, maybe so, but in which country?

Rob

 

[Carmine]

I guess aluminum foil hats are the best line of defense against those insidious, evil Bolsheviks storming the beaches and banks across the nation.

It's always easiest to simply make fun of things you cannot understand, or concepts that intimidate you. Afterall, isn't that what bullies do to the "smart kids"? Another very human reaction to fear is (attempted) humor. It's sad that so many wear their ignornace of history as a badge of honor.

Personally I don't subscribe to the idea of any one conspiracy. I do believe that many politcians, CEOs and others with power and influence are able to spot trends and reactions among the masses. They are able to use/exploit this information to their advantage, just as a stock trader chooses to buy/sell based on his knowledge of a product/service. Whether or not this fits into a larger conspiracy is irrelevant, the end result is the same...

Keep them dumb, entertained and in debit. Better to have them fighting over class, race and religion, then to see a larger picture.

Free trade is with us to stay and-over time-we will ALL benefit hugely from it. Just think - when the Chinese and Mexicans have money to spend, they can spend it on our technology.

If you're waiting for the benefits of Chinese and Mexicans to begin purchasing anyTHING in meaningful numbers from the US, I hope you expect to live a very long time. "Technology" is not a noun. Technological know-how is easily exported, to the benefit of a few, like the poster from Mexico. Simply because something is invented in the US doesn't mean it has to remain here any longer than it takes for a data transmission to India.

I too believe in a free market, but free market economies do not have "maximum wage laws", as do both of the above mentioned nations (and many others, including any communist nation). The reason for maximun wage laws is to encourge foreign (western) investment by keeping labor costs artificially low. Free market economies do not have rules regarding how much of a company must be owned by the governent, which has an obvious interest in preventing competiton. Free market economies do not place restrictive taxes on imported goods....etc. etc.

I have always gone out of my way to purchase products and services from countries that have some measure of environmental and labor regulation. However, in the past decade this has become nearly impossible, and is completely impossible with some items. I have occasionally chosen to do without. So much for freedom of choice. I do not believe our US workers and companies have anything to fear from open trade with these nations that adhere to minimum standards, but free trade with Mexico, China and other communist non-free market nations is akin to allowing someone to sell goods from the trunk of a car, while another must purchase a commerical building and pay taxes. Guess who's going to have the advantage?

BTW, when I worked 3rd shift (in the field of research and development) I did enjoy listening to the Art Bell Show, usually as entertainment, but often because it was thought provoking. I admired his ability to interview the ghost chasers, self-proclaimed witches, and UFO spotters and treat them as respectfully and open minded as the literal rocket scientists, mathmaticians and astronomers who were often guests on the show. During the same time slot, might you critics have been listening to "sports-chat" or Britney Spears?

 

[kavakidd]

Honda

My Honda Accord is more American than your Chevy Impala