True. I'm referencing an Allo based system with 2 TB drive and more than a cheap SMPS.
Where Do I Start?
- Thread starter goatlocker
- Start date
The bottom line is: if it sounds good, it is good. I think hi res recordings can sound excellent, but I've also heard examples where I preferred the CD over the hi res version of the same recording. The good news is that most systems today offer the ability to play back a wide array of file format and bit rates so you can keep the version you like. Storage is also gotten cheap enough so that you can keep multiple versions of a recording if you choose.
You mentioned you might be interested in a "networked player" - a single device that could access music stored on a networked hard drive. Something like this might work.
https://www.amazon.com/Cambridge-Audio-NP30-Network-Player/dp/B004ZZQS8Y
Save your music to a network attached storage device that has UPNP capability - hard drive manufacturers like Western Digital or Seagate have good options - and you're up and running for less than your 1000 dollar budget limit.
You mentioned you might be interested in a "networked player" - a single device that could access music stored on a networked hard drive. Something like this might work.
https://www.amazon.com/Cambridge-Audio-NP30-Network-Player/dp/B004ZZQS8Y
Save your music to a network attached storage device that has UPNP capability - hard drive manufacturers like Western Digital or Seagate have good options - and you're up and running for less than your 1000 dollar budget limit.
Except of course from Sonos. You're stuck with 44/16.
OP: I agree with gvl’s comments. (I didn’t mention streaming because you said you aren’t interested in streaming.)
The issue IMO is whether or not you want to try “hi-res” recordings. I use hi-res for serious listening, and I use streaming for background listening and exploring new music. (BTW, I think Youtube is great for exploring new music.)
Bottom line, regardless of whether or not you decide to invest in a system capable of playing hi-res recordings, IMO you should get a Chromecast Audio gizmo (retail $35), and try Spotify Premium, or Tidal, etc. If you want to wade into a debate about allegedly-hi-res streaming, read this thread: http://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/is-mqa-in-your-future.804274/
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IMO this discussion illustrates the importance of my question: “How tech-savvy are you (e.g., PCs, smart-phones)?" Some solutions require you to perform the role of systems integrator, other solutions are much simpler to use.
The following description of Pure Audio Blu-ray also does a good job of illustrating this distinction: "Pure Audio Blu-ray combines the Blu-ray format's vast storage capacity and bandwidth necessary for high resolution sound (up to 192 kHz/24Bit) in surround and stereo with the easy and straight-forward handling of a CD – on every Blu-ray player" (The same argument for ease-of-use can be made for SACDs.)
Do you want to drop a disc (CD, SACD, or Blu-ray) into the tray and press “play”, or build a solution using multiple hardware and open-source software components? Different people enjoy the hobby of hi-fi in different ways. For people who enjoy tinkering around with hi-fi, there are many ways to enjoy the hobby (many sub-facets):
- Some spend many hours focusing on LPs. In some cases, a different turntable and cartridge for mono recordings. Perhaps different cartridges for different music genres.
- Some enjoy cataloging and editing metadata for huge collections of digitized music, and seeking the most beautiful GUI interface, and building playlists, etc.
- Some are into digital networking, accessing all their music throughout their home by using their smartphone, and accessing their music from anywhere in the world.
- Some people (the cool kids) enjoy tube rolling.
Some tube amps accept multiple types of output tubes, and multiple types of rectifier tubes, and multiple types of input tubes, yielding more than a hundred combinations of tubes, that to some people’s ears each sound different. - Some people enjoy using calibrated mics to measure and plot the sound in their room, and use DSP based gizmos to adjust frequency and delay, and use separate amps for each driver.
- Etc.
In summary - IMO, there are several important questions:
- Do you want to try hi-res recordings?
- Do you want to touch an icon on your tablet and stream from a selection of tens of millions of recordings, in somewhere-near-CD-quality (i.e., Tidal or Spotify)?
- How tech-savvy are you?
- How important is ease-of-use?
- How important is reliability? (Be aware that Chromecast Audio works “most of the time” …)
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Nixxuz
Super Member
I doubt I'm adding much to the discussion, but here's my setup and how I use it...
NextBook AriesA 11.6" tablet.
Now the reason I like this tab, as well as the also cheap RCA Maven, is because the keyboard dock has 2 full sized USB 2.0 ports on it. It also sports 64GB of internal, and can take up to a 128GB? SD card. Seems like a lot until you start getting those 5000kbps+ files! That's where the USB ports come in handy. I haven't tried the OTG USB cables directly to the microUSB port on the tab, but for most DACs you need a USB port. Additionally, most larger portable drives also require a full sized USB port. The main thing I like about the tablet setup is that I get big pictures of album art, and ALL my music is just a matter of swiping the screen. I can search as well. I can also add pretty much any DSP software available for Android. I'm currently using PowerAmp, an app I paid $5 for that includes all those features, and additional ones like adjustable song buffers and auto-downloads for album art and lyrics. I added to my tablet with these things...
The hub is so I can use a 32 or 64GB thumb drive to transfer stuff from my PC, as well as a host of additional devices. Like this!
1TB backup drive. This was $45 and can hold a ton of music, even in high res formats. I know there was a good deal for an 8TB drive for $150 I saw recently. And with a hub, you could easily hook up as many of those as you want.
I run this setup through an FX Audio DAC-X6 to my preamp. It's a cheap little unit, and the sky is the limit when it comes to DACs. Now as to their efficacy compared to one another...?
With the hub, you can also get a portable DVD, or even BluRay drive that just hooks up through the same USB cables as most everything else. So you've got your ability to play discs as well.
The DAC has a simple 20' run of RCA cables to my Little Dot Mk2 preamp. It sits right next to my listening chair on a small table with the hard drive and the DAC. Easy peasy lemon squeezy to find any music I want and play it back in the best possible format. I can also adjust volume and DSP via the touchscreen.
Now if I want to listen to vinyl...I have to get my old ass up and actually put forth effort!
Good luck with your endeavors! My setup wasn't the easiest to get going, but it's quality sound and convenience for a few hundred bucks.
NextBook AriesA 11.6" tablet.
Now the reason I like this tab, as well as the also cheap RCA Maven, is because the keyboard dock has 2 full sized USB 2.0 ports on it. It also sports 64GB of internal, and can take up to a 128GB? SD card. Seems like a lot until you start getting those 5000kbps+ files! That's where the USB ports come in handy. I haven't tried the OTG USB cables directly to the microUSB port on the tab, but for most DACs you need a USB port. Additionally, most larger portable drives also require a full sized USB port. The main thing I like about the tablet setup is that I get big pictures of album art, and ALL my music is just a matter of swiping the screen. I can search as well. I can also add pretty much any DSP software available for Android. I'm currently using PowerAmp, an app I paid $5 for that includes all those features, and additional ones like adjustable song buffers and auto-downloads for album art and lyrics. I added to my tablet with these things...
The hub is so I can use a 32 or 64GB thumb drive to transfer stuff from my PC, as well as a host of additional devices. Like this!
1TB backup drive. This was $45 and can hold a ton of music, even in high res formats. I know there was a good deal for an 8TB drive for $150 I saw recently. And with a hub, you could easily hook up as many of those as you want.
I run this setup through an FX Audio DAC-X6 to my preamp. It's a cheap little unit, and the sky is the limit when it comes to DACs. Now as to their efficacy compared to one another...?
With the hub, you can also get a portable DVD, or even BluRay drive that just hooks up through the same USB cables as most everything else. So you've got your ability to play discs as well.
The DAC has a simple 20' run of RCA cables to my Little Dot Mk2 preamp. It sits right next to my listening chair on a small table with the hard drive and the DAC. Easy peasy lemon squeezy to find any music I want and play it back in the best possible format. I can also adjust volume and DSP via the touchscreen.
Now if I want to listen to vinyl...I have to get my old ass up and actually put forth effort!
Good luck with your endeavors! My setup wasn't the easiest to get going, but it's quality sound and convenience for a few hundred bucks.
KrisM
Lunatic Member
There are also a TON of listening options out there that many don't know about that fall into that "radio" category.
If you are a jazz fan our own poppachubby has a great series on Mixcloud called Lest We Forget. A guy we both kibitz with is a jazz drummer and has a great site with themed episodes that he's put together. Amazingly deep track selection, and commentary that you just won't find on radio. He can be a little crusty(in a good way).
I also have access to a cool app via my library, called Hoopla. I can 'borrow' music for a week and then it's automatically returned. MP3 quality, but it's great for checking out stuff off my radar.
Streaming also gets you access to so many radio stations out there.
Anyway, there are so many options out there that it can hard to see the good stuff(for your tastes and needs), but it's out there.
I doubt I'm adding much to the discussion, but here's my setup and how I use it...
NextBook AriesA 11.6" tablet.
Now the reason I like this tab, as well as the also cheap RCA Maven, is because the keyboard dock has 2 full sized USB 2.0 ports on it. It also sports 64GB of internal, and can take up to a 128GB? SD card. Seems like a lot until you start getting those 5000kbps+ files! That's where the USB ports come in handy. I haven't tried the OTG USB cables directly to the microUSB port on the tab, but for most DACs you need a USB port. Additionally, most larger portable drives also require a full sized USB port. The main thing I like about the tablet setup is that I get big pictures of album art, and ALL my music is just a matter of swiping the screen. I can search as well. I can also add pretty much any DSP software available for Android. I'm currently using PowerAmp, an app I paid $5 for that includes all those features, and additional ones like adjustable song buffers and auto-downloads for album art and lyrics. I added to my tablet with these things...
The hub is so I can use a 32 or 64GB thumb drive to transfer stuff from my PC, as well as a host of additional devices. Like this!
1TB backup drive. This was $45 and can hold a ton of music, even in high res formats. I know there was a good deal for an 8TB drive for $150 I saw recently. And with a hub, you could easily hook up as many of those as you want.
I run this setup through an FX Audio DAC-X6 to my preamp. It's a cheap little unit, and the sky is the limit when it comes to DACs. Now as to their efficacy compared to one another...?
With the hub, you can also get a portable DVD, or even BluRay drive that just hooks up through the same USB cables as most everything else. So you've got your ability to play discs as well.
The DAC has a simple 20' run of RCA cables to my Little Dot Mk2 preamp. It sits right next to my listening chair on a small table with the hard drive and the DAC. Easy peasy lemon squeezy to find any music I want and play it back in the best possible format. I can also adjust volume and DSP via the touchscreen.
Now if I want to listen to vinyl...I have to get my old ass up and actually put forth effort!
Good luck with your endeavors! My setup wasn't the easiest to get going, but it's quality sound and convenience for a few hundred bucks.
A year ago, when I bought a Windows 10 laptop, it was not possible to play (or copy) the SACD layer of an SACD using a PC. (A PC could play the CD layer of a hybrid SACD.) Is it possible today to play SACDs on a PC? For stereo? For 2.1? For 5.1?
What hardware and software are required to play Pure Audio Blu-ray discs (e.g., 24bit/192kHz) on a PC? For stereo? For 2.1? For 5.1?
I’ve never tried playing DSD downloads on my PC. What’s required to support stereo DSD downloads? 2.1? 5.1?
Hi-res (24bit/192kHz) FLAC (stereo) downloads play OK on my Windows 10 PC, using software that came standard (Groove Music player). (I have an old Music Streamer II DAC.) However, I seldom listen to hi-res through my PC, because of UI difficulties. IIRC, the Groove player is OK using the “album” view, but due to lack of standards regarding metadata for classical music, it’s difficult to find recordings based on artist. For example, a recording of Beethoven Symphony 9 is indexed based on the soprano as the “artist” (vs. the composer, Beethoven). My research about music player software indicated that third party software was needed to adequately manage a music library on a PC, and I elected not to pursue this.
Are any AK members using a PC as a server for classical music? What types of discs and files are you able to play? How did you solve the problem of tagging (i.e., metadata)?
For me the simplest solution that plays almost all discs and downloaded files is an Oppo universal player. AFAIK, the only digital format that the UDP-205 doesn’t support is HDCD decoding. (The UDP-205 can play HDCDs as CDs. OTOH, the older BDP-105 supports HDCD decoding, but does not support UHD.) I don’t think I own any HDCDs, and I don’t think they’re currently manufactured, so HDCD was not a requirement for me.
This illustrates the point I made earlier that some genres are more commonly available in certain formats – e.g., CD vs. HDCD vs. SACD vs. Blu-ray vs. UHD vs. hi-res FLAC download vs. DSD download. My understanding is that the Oppo UDP-205 currently supports playing MQA files, with more types of MQA support to follow (presumably including streaming). However, I’m currently staying out of the fray regarding MQA, because I don’t currently have a need for it. There are currently plenty of hi-res formats available for the music that I like, without introducing a new format. And, I currently use streaming for casual listening, not serious listening. With that said, at some point in the future, I will probably try MQA.
As I said in my first post, I believe that it’s important to get a player that supports all of the available recorded music formats for the music that you like – so that you have the most options for buying (or streaming) high quality recordings.
KrisM
Lunatic Member
Classical and tagging is headache inducing, IMO. I actually started a thread about it awhile back, and I still haven't really sorted out how I want to go. A tag editor like MP3Tag is mandatory with a digital classical collection, especially if online purchases are a part of the picture.
I get around the issue by ripping to folders. I label them the way I like, and use an app that can search through those folders.
So, something like the 9th would have a folder called "Ludwig Van Beethoven - 9th Symphony (Karajan, 1976)". Another would be the same but with (Rattle, 2002) at the end. The tags could be different, or completely empty, but I can still find what I want.
If I'm spending the time and effort to rip, I'd rather just get it right, though. It's why I haven't ripped much classical yet. I'm still at a paralysis by analysis stage, lol.
I agree about being able to play as many formats and quality levels as possible.
The whole 'is hi-rez worth it thing' is an argument I stay out of, but why limit what you can play back? If the best version of an album you like is in a format that isn't redbook why limit yourself?
It is. Have you looked say into capabilities of JRiver ? Given you have all related tags populated you can slice and dice your collection as you please, create views of the library in arbitrary grouping. Entering and normalizing all the tag data is however a royal PITA.
Actually, there is a tool called "iso2dsd_PC" which rips tracks from an ISO image of the disk. I've not done it, but downloaded the software in case. DSD playback requires specific playback software and DAC support.
Most certainly. Downloaded FLAC content already contains metadata and I use dbPowerAmp for ripping CDs. Like Kris, I use a separate tagging tool called Tag & Rename to fine tune the contents.
Amen! I also prefer buying music at is mastered resolution, whatever that may be. Whether or not you find value with high resolution formats, I just shake my head at those who take such a stridently negative approach to them. There has been a meta analysis of nearly a hundred different studies published in the AES which has compared the statistical results of each and summarized the findings.
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KrisM
Lunatic Member
I gave it a try with the trial version a few years back, and didn't really care for it. That was more about the ripping, though. EAC works well enough for my needs.
I didn't spend much time with the playback side of it, though. I could see myself coming back around and trying it out again.
Classical is a bit of an odd one here. I don't care to listen to it while out and about, I don't listen to it much on the garage/patio system, and I don't listen to it when my head hits the pillow. It's almost always a sit down and listen 'event', or background music in the living room/dining room area. Grabbing a CD, SACD, or album almost always works for those moments. I'm stuck on how to rip my classical, but it's like it doesn't matter. The other methods work fine for me. For now at least, lol.
For downloaded hi-res FLAC files (e.g., from HDTracks), I maintain a simple file hierarchy on my USB drives, using the same simple Windows methods for creating folders that’s existed for many years. The first level is composer (e.g., Beethoven, Brahms), or in some cases a soloist (e.g., Callas, Netrebko). Under Beethoven, a subfolder for each composition. An additional level of subfolder, if needed, for different performances. The Oppo's presentation of these folders on the UDP-205 is simple, and easy to navigate using the Oppo's remote control. And, relatively reliable. (Compared, for example, with Chromecast and Chromecast Audio’s Android-based control apps.) Based on what I've read, I believe this method is less of a headache than using sophisticated music player software like JRiver.
I don't bother with ripping CDs due to the headaches discussed above. (And the fact that discs like SACD and Blu-ray involve additional complications when ripping.)
IMO, with the Oppo it’s relatively easy to alternate between playing discs, playing downloaded files, and playing streaming sources via Chromecast Audio. In a sense the Oppo UDP-205 (and older BDP-105) function as a universal player, and “control center” and “pre-amp” for all digital recordings. (As I said earlier, I can connect vintage mono tube power amps direct to the Oppo. IMO this combines the best of new technology (hi-res recordings), with the best of vintage technology (the rich sound of tube amps), with the minimal number of components in the audio playback system.)
Almost all recordings these days are mastered in hi-res (either 24/192 PCM, or DSD). There's a lot of new classical recordings being sold in hi-res formats. My philosophy is why not buy the recording in the format it was mastered in, vs. down-sampling it to a lower bit rate (e.g., to fit on 30+ year-old CD technology).
Multi-channel is another potential benefit of modern formats. IMO, in a large room (particularly where the main speakers must be widely spaced), multi-channel is worthwhile (particularly for large-scale works).
My current position is that if a recording isn’t available as a hi-res deliverable (e.g., SACD, Blu-ray, or hi-res download) – preferably in multi-channel – I’ll probably listen to the recording via Spotify Premium vs. buying a CD.
I don't bother with ripping CDs due to the headaches discussed above. (And the fact that discs like SACD and Blu-ray involve additional complications when ripping.)
IMO, with the Oppo it’s relatively easy to alternate between playing discs, playing downloaded files, and playing streaming sources via Chromecast Audio. In a sense the Oppo UDP-205 (and older BDP-105) function as a universal player, and “control center” and “pre-amp” for all digital recordings. (As I said earlier, I can connect vintage mono tube power amps direct to the Oppo. IMO this combines the best of new technology (hi-res recordings), with the best of vintage technology (the rich sound of tube amps), with the minimal number of components in the audio playback system.)
Almost all recordings these days are mastered in hi-res (either 24/192 PCM, or DSD). There's a lot of new classical recordings being sold in hi-res formats. My philosophy is why not buy the recording in the format it was mastered in, vs. down-sampling it to a lower bit rate (e.g., to fit on 30+ year-old CD technology).
Multi-channel is another potential benefit of modern formats. IMO, in a large room (particularly where the main speakers must be widely spaced), multi-channel is worthwhile (particularly for large-scale works).
My current position is that if a recording isn’t available as a hi-res deliverable (e.g., SACD, Blu-ray, or hi-res download) – preferably in multi-channel – I’ll probably listen to the recording via Spotify Premium vs. buying a CD.
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Hierarchical file-system based organization while simple is limited. It works up to certain collection size then it becomes difficult to manage and find things. How do you find all tracks by say Beethoven if it can be composer or soloist on the first level? Tag-based systems are superior given the tags were assigned in a systematic manner and are not mutually exclusive with the file-system based approach.
Yes, I agree that a hierarchical file structure does not offer relational-database type search capabilities, and therefore has limits. However, my approach is currently the best solution for me, because of my unwillingness to invest the time in ripping and tagging my CDs. I don't own thousands of recordings, so my collection is manageable without a search capability. My plan is to own hi-res recordings of my favorite works, and use Spotify Premium for everything else.
olderroust
AK Member
I'm glad I persisted through the LMS slapfest to find this nugget.
The software appears to be free as in beer, and is also available for Linux and MacOS.
http://www.sonore.us/iso2dsd.html
They also have a DSD to FLAC converter, which is available for Mac and Linux but not for Windows.
For the OP, the Oppo 105 or 205 are a pretty good all-in-one setup. A good USB DAC is built-in, you can configure it to use only two channels of the analog outputs and run those into your preamp or integrated and support for a number of streaming services is built into the firmware. And of course, it's a very good universal disc player.
You can control it from an Android or ios app, or you can tell your computer to stream a file directly to it over the network, you can connect your computer to it via USB, and you can hang a harddrive off of it and play files from that. having a monitor connected as you learn to use it is very helpful, but once you know what you prefer to do you can likely use it headless most or all of the time - I use an oppo 103 headless most of the time.
An alternative would be to start with your computer as your main digital source and pick up a DAC with USB and SPDIF inputs. Schiit makes some very nice ones for much less than the cost of the 105 (if you can find one) or the 205.
I don't know the dedicated streamer landscape very well. What I've seen in the past has underwhelmed me as far as cost to usefulness - but that's in part because I made choices setting things up some time ago that mean I have a preference for using a computer or tablet to access music, and I've had a server in the house for about 8 years for use as a backup location. Adding music files to that was obvious, and although I briefly subscribed to Tidal I wasn't impressed - I'm happy to listen to radio, either via a tuner or on a computer or tablet to find things I think I enjoy, but I typically prefer to have the files on the server if I think I'm going to want to revisit them.
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KrisM
Lunatic Member
I guess it depends on how you roll, how you think, etc.
My main music hard drive is at 2TB right now, and I can find anything I want on it and hit play.
The sticky part for me here is classical. I have genre folders, within those I have A,B,C, and so on folders, and then within that the folders with the artist and then album title. Easy peasy for me to find something to spin. With all genres not 'classical'.
If I'm listening to a Thelonious Monk album where he does all Ellington tunes, it's a Monk album in my mind. If it's a Beethoven album performed by such an such symphony or conductor it's a Beethoven album. And then what about those with multiple composers? Like I said, it's a headache inducer, lol.
I'm aware that there have been various efforts to solve the problem of tagging classical music. (Another forum that focuses on classical music has many posts on this topic.)
I've not used this front-end to Spotify, but it looks interesting: http://getconcertmaster.com/
I've not used this front-end to Spotify, but it looks interesting: http://getconcertmaster.com/
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Unfortunately, overt negativity abounds here with certain topics.
There is much good SACD content available.
It does take some research to determine what the market has to offer. My selections have been at the low and mid tiers in terms of cost, but both offer wonderful audible results when appropriately configured (RPi), given a good power supply and fed high resolution content. The Raspberry PI platform is truly amazing in its flexibility, wide level of support with both software and hardware and level of performance. Just takes a bit of assembly and configuring the right parameters. It will play virtually any digital format available today. Sonore's offerings like the microRendu and ultraRendu elevate performance to a higher level when powered by something like the Uptone LPS-1.
I don't share that concern. I organize by composer and place all the content there. The metadata tells me date, symphony, conductor, etc.
You're likely a good candidate for Roon with its rich metadata and cross references.
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