Where to spend $100 on a new tt mat - Funk Achromat vs. Herbie's Way Excellent II

Andy_H said:
After a spending a few days with all these mats circulating on and off my table, here I am to report on what I've heard. At first I began to think that I might have too many contenders to make the comparison easy, but that worked out in the end. Here's what all I tried: 1) the original Technics heavy rubber mat 2) the Funk Firm Achromat (5mm model) 3) deer hide 4) plastic-backed cork disk 5) gator foam disk. Having swapped through all of these time and again, spinning the same LPs over and over, my conclusion is:

I can't hear any significant difference.

There *might* be some minute shades of character from one to the next, but I don't trust my impressions enough to try to describe them. Since I always knew what mat was in play, I can't discount the possibility that just knowing that information would have influenced what I thought I heard. And I am quite sure that if I had someone else to change these mats around, out of my sight, I would not be able to tell which one was which or if the mat had even been changed at all.

I don't doubt that various mat materials and platter interfaces could make some synergistic difference on some turntables, in some systems, but for me, with what I have right now, I can hear no real difference - and no reason to focus on platter mat tweaks any further.

I certainly appreciate Marc giving me the opportunity to hear a couple different mats for a bit. I'm also glad I didn't buy any expensive aftermarket mat because it wouldn't be a justifiable expense when I could spend the money elsewhere in my system. Of course I have no idea how any of these mats would perform in your system, this is only what I heard, IMHO, YMMV, etc, etc.
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That is part of what I hoped to accomplish with the loan of mats. As a bit of history to some of this.......in the mid-late 70's "we" tried various mats on the glass platter Rega table. "we" found that deer hide provided the best synergy over the various commercial mats at that time. Those test results were reported in the AR forum at vinylengine some years ago. Another VE member resurected that article and experimented with various types of leather on his Thorens table. His conclusions were that deer hide performed the best. On my AR(s), deer hide performs the best. Are the differences between the various mats night and day........errrr, no (with the caveat that the AQ sorbothane mat sucks the life out of my tables). I'm not trying to sell anything in this post, nor trying to prevent anyone from purchasing a product.
I do think however as a "vinyl community" we all can benefit from sharing various items and giving an honest oppinion of how those products perform in their systems. I believe it's a bit more honest way than what some shill in a magazine gets paid to say, and it's a lot cheaper in the long run than snake-oil. Glad I could help you save some money Andy.

Marc
 
marcmorin said:
That is part of what I hoped to accomplish with the loan of mats. As a bit of history to some of this.......in the mid-late 70's "we" tried various mats on the glass platter Rega table. "we" found that deer hide provided the best synergy over the various commercial mats at that time. Those test results were reported in the AR forum at vinylengine some years ago. Another VE member resurected that article and experimented with various types of leather on his Thorens table. His conclusions were that deer hide performed the best. On my AR(s), deer hide performs the best. Are the differences between the various mats night and day........errrr, no (with the caveat that the AQ sorbothane mat sucks the life out of my tables). I'm not trying to sell anything in this post, nor trying to prevent anyone from purchasing a product.
I do think however as a "vinyl community" we all can benefit from sharing various items and giving an honest oppinion of how those products perform in their systems. I believe it's a bit more honest way than what some shill in a magazine gets paid to say, and it's a lot cheaper in the long run than snake-oil. Glad I could help you save some money Andy.

Marc
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Thanks for the insight Marc - and I especially want to repeat what you said "I'm not trying to sell anything in this post, nor trying to prevent anyone from purchasing a product." I'm not going to pooh-pooh the idea that a mat tweak could be beneficial to some tables. I mean, my table is nothing exotic and the cartridge I'm running right now is certainly nothing special. It could be that there's just not enough resolution in my system to bring out all the subtleties. There are plenty of tweaks and experiments one can perform, and that's part of the fun, but I also want to just sit back and listen and enjoy the music without worrying about constant upgrades. So I think I'm done messing with mats for a while as the original Technics rubber mat is sufficient for my needs right now.
 
There may be greater (or less) differences in mats depending on how well damped the platter is to begin with. My Kenwood platter is cast aluminum, and it rings like a bell when flicked. The downside of that was very audible when I tried replacing the mat with a pattern of cork dots -- the sound became hard, metallic and, well, "ring-y," and was extremely unpleasant.

I heard less difference between a felt/carbon fiber mat, a shelf liner mat, hard rubber and my Herbie's mat. But I did hear some difference. I could easily have lived with the shelf liner, but it leached crap onto albums, leaving a pattern on the side that touched it. The pattern eventually went away, but I don't want to put valuable records on there, no way. I could have lived with the felt mat, but it left a lot of lint on the underside of the record, so that was no good. The hard rubber sounded kind of dull compared to the others, so it was out.

The Herbie's had the advantage of coming in many different thicknesses, which was good, since I don't have easily adjustable VTA. Plus, it sounded better than the others. Hugely better than cork dots, a little better than the others, but that was enough. Add the VTA situation, and the fact that it doesn't stick to records or leave crap on them, and it was the winner. At around $70, I feel like it's a reasonable price. Plus, Steve's an AK sponsor.
 
Thanks, Andy!

IMO it is all about synergy. Just so happens in your case your system (or music from) is not affected much by changing your TT mat.

However, I believe in another system, not necessarily a more expensive one, a changing of mats would be heard.
 
It is a blessing for those who cannot hear any difference among mats; no doubt, they will save a lot of money in the long term.
Unfortunately, I could hear the differences. As a result, I have bought more than a dozen of mats over all the years, swapping and messing with them, spending numerous hours and listening to them, a tiring but fun experience.
 
Andy_H said:
Thanks for the insight Marc - and I especially want to repeat what you said "I'm not trying to sell anything in this post, nor trying to prevent anyone from purchasing a product." I'm not going to pooh-pooh the idea that a mat tweak could be beneficial to some tables. I mean, my table is nothing exotic and the cartridge I'm running right now is certainly nothing special. It could be that there's just not enough resolution in my system to bring out all the subtleties. There are plenty of tweaks and experiments one can perform, and that's part of the fun, but I also want to just sit back and listen and enjoy the music without worrying about constant upgrades. So I think I'm done messing with mats for a while as the original Technics rubber mat is sufficient for my needs right now.
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Are you willing to do a cartridge evaluation now? :D
 
Home Depot or Target. Then take the remaining 95 dollars and get some more vinyl. :scratch2:

Looking for a hocky puck for a center weight...if I can drill it centered.
 
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If you're lucky find a DJ with "ubiquitous 1200s" that replaced those nice heavy ones with neon obnoxious mats for the looks...unless they tossed out those dull, boring OEM ones...

:nono:
 
I'm a Canadian who picked up on Marc's suggestion of a leather mat.
To my ears, different mats do have different effects on the sound.
The very firm rubber mats, as used by many manufacturers, are not bad.
The soft rubber mats make for muddy bass.
Foam from the craft store sounds dead.
Felt mats, thin and stiff like D'Stat less than the thick, soft ones, are not great in the bass.
Cork gives much better imaging than felt.
Leather gives clean, well controlled bass and a very clean top end, as well as a great midrange. Definitely a great, cheap, upgrade from a felt mat.
I have yet to do a stringent comparison between the deerhide and the cowhide.

Cheers,
Alec
 
Alec124c41 said:
I'm a Canadian who picked up on Marc's suggestion of a leather mat.
To my ears, different mats do have different effects on the sound.
The very firm rubber mats, as used by many manufacturers, are not bad.
The soft rubber mats make for muddy bass.
Foam from the craft store sounds dead.
Felt mats, thin and stiff like D'Stat less than the thick, soft ones, are not great in the bass.
Cork gives much better imaging than felt.
Leather gives clean, well controlled bass and a very clean top end, as well as a great midrange. Definitely a great, cheap, upgrade from a felt mat.
I have yet to do a stringent comparison between the deerhide and the cowhide.

Cheers,
Alec
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Good to see you again Alec. Been a long time.
 
Hi Marc and Alec, nice to see you guys over here.

Have either of you tried the Merrill mat, if so how is it compared to the diy cork or standard 1/4'' mats.

Steve
 
sfrost said:
Hi Marc and Alec, nice to see you guys over here.

Have either of you tried the Merrill mat, if so how is it compared to the diy cork or standard 1/4'' mats.

Steve
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Well, hello to you too my friend. I have not tried the Merrill Mat. I have various cork and laminate cork, which I find better than the basic manufacturers rubber mats. I've had various felt types and foam types, and even the AQ mat which I ragged on earlier in this thread. I find the deer hide to be the most open sounding without accentuating. I'm not sure the suspension on my XA (being stock spring rate) would support the Merrill Lead mat. And my ES-1 is about as sweet as it can get at the moment. My other AR is sitting on the selling blocks at the moment, so I can't really do any experimenting there. On another note.......how's biz? I have something you might like to try.
 
I was thinking of trying the Merrill mat but am pretty satisfied with the Monster tri-pad.

You have peek my interest, always up for trying something, especially if it is a table mod.
 
Susurus said:
Home Depot or Target. Then take the remaining 95 dollars and get some more vinyl. :scratch2:

Looking for a hocky puck for a center weight...if I can drill it centered.
Click to expand...

http://www.instructables.com/id/Make-a-Center-Finder/

:thmbsp:


Thanks for posting so much about the mat cpmparison all! :thmbsp: again.

Ime the turntable (platter) can make a difference on which type of mat should de used.
I like the standard thick rubber mat on my SL1200MKII, I dislike the thin rubber standard mat on my Lenco L78.
That platter needs rubber bands around it and a solid mat or thick rubber mat to get the ring out of the platter.
I do still want to try a leather mat on it. :dunno:
 
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Hey Marc, did you send a deer hide mat with that AR I just picked up from you? Or do I have to make sure I get a deer this year so I can make one from scratch? I usually toss the hide. But I have been thinking about building a rack and attempting to tan one myself.
 
mikeski said:
Hey Marc, did you send a deer hide mat with that AR I just picked up from you? Or do I have to make sure I get a deer this year so I can make one from scratch? I usually toss the hide. But I have been thinking about building a rack and attempting to tan one myself.
Click to expand...

No, it did not come with a deer hide mat. It has a dual composition Sony mat on it. Good luck during deer season.
 
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