Which to choose? Hitachi HCA/HMA-8300 or Kenwood Basic C2/M2A?

Arkay

Lunatic Member
I'm considering buying a preamp plus power amp for another system, and have found two pre+power amp combinations that appeal to me. I don't know which one would be better to get. They are:

Kenwood Basic C2 preamp plus M2A power amp.
Hitachi HCA-8300 preamp plus HMA-8300 "Dynaharmony" power amp

It seems these are both roughly similar (200 WPC) in power output. The Hitachi HMA-8300 is apparently (one of, if not) the first Class G mos-fet amp, and despite being a Hitachi, may be excellent, too.

I've read a number of posts here praising the Kenwoods - they seem to be a lot more common and widely respected. I can get the pair for about $150, and I think I'd be happy with them. Can't seem to find as much about the Hitachis. Less common and less well-known, but that doesn't automatically mean not as good; the Hitachis look very impressive, too. [See here: http://www.thevintageknob.org/THEVAULT/8300/8300.html ].

Does anyone here have experience with, or knowledge of, these Hitachis? OR even better, of both of the Hitachis and the Kenwoods, who could tell me their respectiive strengths and weaknesses? I can't afford to get both (getting a 9090DB and some other things this month, so already over-stretched on budget ...let's not get into storage space! :no::sigh:), so I need to narrow it down to just one pair. I'd rather do it by reasoned choice than by "whichever one sells first and I'll take what is left" as that approach is likely to leave me with the less-desireable alternative.

Any advice or suggestions appreciated.
 
The Kenny's are pretty good, but I have to admit I've never been impressed by the build quality of the C2...the various knobs and switches have a cheap "snap" feeling to them when used (although the Volume control is nice)

The amplifier is a different story though...very nicely put together, and quite good sounding...

If it was me, I'd most likely pick up the Hitachi. I've never heard a set, and am always interested in the vintage Japanese gear...there will be plenty of chances to snag anouther C2/M2A combo down the road if you so desire
 
I would go with the Kenwood Basic M2a and C2.
The M2a is a very strong 220 wpc. I still have the C2--I don't think it is cheesy at all, nice build quality and the knobs feel firm.
The C2 has an exceptional phono section with great flexibility. If you would need the owners manual, let me know & we can work something out.
 
Arkay,
Before I give my opinion of where you should go here,I'm aware that you're in HK and from your posts have said that you get exposed to quite a range of good quality gear from time to time.
Both sets of amps(Hitachi 8300 and Kenwood Basics) were their manufacturers TOTL at the time of their releases,but given the amount of good gear you see in a year(much more than I'd see,in person,in five years),I'd hold out for a v-fet poweramp(Sony,Yamaha).
The reason?I used to use a Kenwood Basic M1 as the treble-range amplifier in my active Altec system.When I replaced it with the Yamaha B-2,it was like watcing a fog blow away to reveal a previously unrevealed panorama.:yes:
The improvement shocked and delighted me because I had been using the Kenny M1 in partnership with it's big brother the M2,and was quite happy with the combination and wondered whether the Yammie B-2 wouldn't have difficulty bettering the Kenwood siblings in the active set-up because of their sibling relationship.
I still use the Kenwood Basic M2 as my bass(< 800Hz)poweramp and it still impresses the heck out of me.All the more so as I continue to improve the sound I'm getting from my system,but I don't know that I'd be quite so able to achieve the wonderful sound I'm getting if I took the Yamaha B-2 out of the loop.:scratch2:
Hence rather than saying"Go for the Hitachis" or "Go for the Kenwoods",I'm saying "Hold out for a v-fet",you'll probably have a better chance than most of us to snag one.
If I saw another Yammie B-2 which I could afford at the moment I'd jump on it.I'm convinced that they sound marvellous.:yes:
Sorry if I didn't answer the question that you were asking originally,but that is what I feel is the best advice I could give you.:yes:
Best of luck with whichever decision you make.:thmbsp:
 
I sold both back when they were new. With them side by side in the store, the Hitachi pair made it to my home system and the Kenwood wasn't even close. I used the Hitachi amp for about 5 years, although I did replace the pre-amp which was the weak link... The Kenwood was a bit "bright" sounding (good for sounding louder...) while the Hitachi was more smooth and musical...
 
Where does eveyone get this idea that the Hitachi is Mosfet? It's a bipolar amp.

Just got done rebuilding one a month or two ago. Interesting design, sounds nice. But there's no Mosfet's, VFET's, or any-FET's inside. 100% bipolar transistors.

Just rebuilt a 8300 preamp too.

Edit: Just looked at the Vintage Knob site. Axel is wrong. Need to talk to him about that.
 
Theophile, thanks for the advice. I already have a Yammie M2 [amazing amp... 100% pure silver wiring inside, throughout the entire thing! :yes::yikes: . Can you imagine a major brand maker producing anything like that today? :no:]. I have seen a B2 or two... but not very often. I'll research the B2 a bit more, after your comments. Thanks!

I may still get one of these others first, though. I want something for a separate system, without waiting a half-year for something better to show up, and getting this would not mean I wouldn't/couldn't get a B2 later on. Something less than TOTL might be okay for the use I have in mind; I just want to get the better/best of the alternatives in front of me now.

EchoWars, what you say is interesting, because if you are right (and if you just rebuilt one, you darned well must know! :D) than a number of websites and references -- and even one reproduced ad/brochure that I saw -- are wrong! Wouldn't be the first time that someone had exaggerated or mislead in their marketing, or that a misconception/error became "common knowledge" online. Maybe I should ask you, after working on one and hearing it, IS IT STILL A GOOD AMP? Which pair (of the two mentioned) do you think I should get, or do you agree with Theophile that I should wait for something even better?
 
The Hitachi is a fine amp, and also it is a bit of audio history, being the first production Class G amp. The 'complaints' are that, if switching once in a Class aB amp (from the transistor that handles the negative voltage swing to the one that handles the positive voltage swing) is a bad thing (as any Class A amp enthusiast will tell you), then switching from the low-powered output transistors to the high-powered transistors ought to be even worse. In practice on the bench, I cannot detect where the second set of transistors take over...and I tried.

The factory output transistors are 2SD675, 2SD676, 2SB655, and 2SB656. These are all bipolar numbers, and when repairing I found a leaky one. All outputs were replaced with MJ21193's and MJ21194's. Can't ask for much more proof than that if you want to be convinced that it is a bipolar transistor amp (unless I scan and post the schematic, which sounds too much like work at the moment).

I would say that, due to the few devices used in the output stage of the Hitachi (the two PNP and NPN devices are in series and do not load-share like most high-power amps with multiple output devices), the Hitachi is not really designed to be driven hard for long periods, and may be susceptible to blowing up if run into a difficult speaker load (reactive loads will likely easily force the output transistors out of their SOA). Hitachi rates the amp at 200W continuous, so I may be off-base in suggesting that its output stage is weak.
 
Hitachi...

:yes:I don't have any Kenwood gear (yet...:smoke:), but I do have Hitachi gear. Perhaps this thread will be of some assistance. http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=11467
Actually, I also have a Hitachi HCA-7500 preamp (with rack handles...:banana:), But I have not seen it yet, as I've been away for a few months now, and won't be back home for another month...but I digress...:boring:)
Anyway, I love the Hitachi amp. Although it is quite old, it remained clean and intact, and solid. Been to Bulgaria a few weeks back, and there was this band playing terrible music by the hotel pool, and the only thing that caught my ear was how good the sound was. When I peeked at their amplification, I saw it was the Hitachi 6500 amp, scratched and banged from just about anything a wokring amp gets banged against on the road over the years, strapped to god knows what it was, and producing really good sound. So, there's my 2c...hope it helps.
 
Thanks EW, for the info.


legaleagel, nice story that gives one a little more confidence in the potential durability of Hitachi amps! That link will come in handy the next time I'm looking for tubes for an old GE television, too! [:scratch2:...:headscrat....:D]
 
Tough question, and unless we knew how each specific set of preamp/amp was working right now (as opposed to how it worked factory-fresh), any advice we might give would be useless. As it is, we can really only deal in generalities and anecdotal evidence. So here's mine:

First, of the components you're considering, I only own the Basic C2, but I do own other near-TOTL Kenwood and Hitachi bits from around the same time. Both companies made some astonishingly good stuff and their TOTL and even their second-tier stuff is wholly respectable. The Basic C2 is a good solid versatile '80s preamp just as Bully says. I've also got a KA-7100 integrated which could fairly be said to be bulletproof. I have an L-07C preamp that's ugly as sin, has survived a miniflood, and keeps going.

I also have (counts on fingers) 4 Hitachi MOSFET power amps, all of which are wonderful and reliable. Hitachi's cheap turntables are very underrated-- very astute engineering work there. I readily admit I like Hitachi (and so does member Yamaha B-2), and am still wondering why they weren't big in the US market.

So if it were me, and I had no preferences based on features, and the prices were similar, I might just flip a coin-- if I couldn't get any clues about the current condition of the two setups. That's key when components are this old. I think the only way to decide would be to get some good photos/visit the sellers/ask some pointed questions/hear the units for sale. But that's me.

All things considered, though, I like Theophile's suggestion and second it.

And thanks to EchoWars for dividing the MOSFETs from the BJTs. The word MOSFET doesn't even appear on the HMA-8300's fascia. Axel added a correction paragraph to the page describing the HCA-8300, but didn't change the rest, so the words and photos appear to contradict, and it would be easy to come away with the wrong impression: http://www.thevintageknob.org/THEVAULT2/8300/8300.html
 
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I'm considering buying a preamp plus power amp for another system, and have found two pre+power amp combinations that appeal to me. I don't know which one would be better to get. They are:

Kenwood Basic C2 preamp plus M2A power amp.
Hitachi HCA-8300 preamp plus HMA-8300 "Dynaharmony" power amp

It seems these are both roughly similar (200 WPC) in power output. The Hitachi HMA-8300 is apparently (one of, if not) the first Class G mos-fet amp, and despite being a Hitachi, may be excellent, too.

I've read a number of posts here praising the Kenwoods - they seem to be a lot more common and widely respected. I can get the pair for about $150, and I think I'd be happy with them. Can't seem to find as much about the Hitachis. Less common and less well-known, but that doesn't automatically mean not as good; the Hitachis look very impressive, too. [See here: http://www.thevintageknob.org/THEVAULT/8300/8300.html ].

Does anyone here have experience with, or knowledge of, these Hitachis? OR even better, of both of the Hitachis and the Kenwoods, who could tell me their respectiive strengths and weaknesses? I can't afford to get both (getting a 9090DB and some other things this month, so already over-stretched on budget ...let's not get into storage space! :no::sigh:), so I need to narrow it down to just one pair. I'd rather do it by reasoned choice than by "whichever one sells first and I'll take what is left" as that approach is likely to leave me with the less-desireable alternative.

Any advice or suggestions appreciated.
Hi Arkay, can update us on this, I know it's 15 years passed.... I'm interested in this amp too.
 
Old topic I know this is. I'm in the same place as Arkay.

I have several pieces from Hitachi/ Lo-D including their preamps HCA-8500 and HCA-7500, and amps HMA-8500, HMA-9500 I, also one bad HMA-8300. Just yesterday I got a relatively expensive 8300 at US$400 a 100V unit imported from Japan by an acquaintance of mine, who sold it to me. He said the price he had paid to have it shipped from Japan was higher than what I was gonna pay him. I wasn't doubting, considering those prices I had previously paid for Japan imports.

Immediately I opened up the amp and checked on the possibility of rewiring it from 100V to 220V. Alas! No luck there, contrary to what I had done on other Hitachi's where they were wired at their primary taps anywhere between 100 and 240V. This was was a purebred for Japan 100V 50/60Hz. My supply has an output of 1500W 110V 50Hz so it should work until I make up my mind to have customs made an isolation tranny.

Right now I'm putting it in parallel with my HMA-9500 with a Pioneer D-23 elect x'over driving a nominally 8 ohm Technics SB-F3 at 160Hz/12dB, my 16 ohm JBL 4320 driven by the 8300. I tried switching the amps between the Technics and the JBL. On one instance the protection circuit was triggered by the Technics doing an easy 50W. So putting it in tandem with the 16 ohm JBL seems to make better sense.

I wonder what will happen when the 8300 meets my 4 ohm AR3a.

Just to throw my experience for some sharing back from you folks.
 
My experiences with Hitachi is they are pretty good with 4 ohm speakers, however not sure how power hungry the AR3a are. I've never seen them here. I did use use a Hitachi to drive a pair Ohm D2s.
 
By the way, I've had a few of that Kenwood family, just never an M2A. They have plenty of power for 4 ohm loads like Celestion Ditton 44s and such. The Yamaha M40 is even better!
 
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