While Strolling Through The Net Today...

While reading the article, this one was linked and proved a great read.....it explains the difference between subjectivists and objectivists and what they think about audio.

http://nwavguy.blogspot.com/2011/05/subjective-vs-objective-debate.html

THE SUBJECTIVISTS: The hardcore Subjectivists trust their own ears above all else and often ignore, downplay, or sometimes even actively discredit objective efforts. Some argue they have superior hearing and/or listening skills and more refined tastes. That sometimes creates at least a whiff of an elitist “club” that some are drawn to (think Robb Report). But, regardless, their genuine passion for audio is to be admired. And I believe at least some of them do have superior listening skills compared to the Average Joe. Despite their more emotional left brains, which might imply a greater love of music, there’s some consensus Subjectivists spend more of their time tweaking and evaluating their hardware than a typical objectivist. Stereophile’s Michael Fremer is generally considered a strong subjectivist.

THE OBJECTIVISTS: This group tends to prefer some sort of science, measurements, or objective listening tests to back up claims of “A is better than B”. When reading a gear review they’re more likely to skip to the measurements section (if there is one) than read subjective impressions. They tend to be skeptical of outrageous claims and ultra high priced gear. They also tend to buy less expensive gear, less often, than subjectivists making them less attractive to manufactures. As mentioned above, they tend to be more satisfied with their systems so the spend more time just listening to music rather than the gear. Some have speculated this is because they’re confident more of their hardware is already “good enough.” Peter Aczel and the late Julian Hirsch are classic audio objectivists. And a lot of the folks at Hydrogenaudio fall in this category.

THE MODERATES: Just as with politics and religion, it’s not black and white. Some have a foot firmly in both the objective and subjective side of things. Some examples are John Atkinson at Stereophile, John Siau at Benchmark Media, and to some degree, myself. We value objective measurements but also trust our ears and just because we may not hear a difference we accept someone else might. I believe those in the middle are generally the most open minded.


There is a lot more in the article.....very enjoyable no matter what side one comes down on.
ACCOUNTABILITY: The subjective reviewers have it easy. If someone doesn’t agree with one of their reviews, excuses are plentiful. When subjective reviewers are questioned, I have seriously seen or heard variations of all of these responses:

  • While you might not like it I preferred the slightly more recessed presentation of the UberDAC Black Edition
  • The UberDAC is a better match with my ultra expensive reference system than your more modest gear
  • Did you use the UberLink Reverse Twisted Unobtanium cables I recommended for the UberDAC?
  • I was in a noisy restaurant for lunch immediately before reviewing the UberDAC and my ears hadn’t fully recovered
  • I didn’t know it at the time, but it turns out I was in the early stages of a head cold when I reviewed the UberDAC
  • I had too much wine the night before (my personal favorite)

Somebody pin the above quote.

Subjective preference can only be defined by oneself through one's own senses. No one can experience what the other person is experiencing so whatever they say cannot be relied upon as the absolute truth. This is the existential theory that defines our own individual existence but curiously does not confirm the existence of others. The very common mistake made in this arena is that subjectivists tend to apply their own preference to all others and forget to add the provision "to me".

Objective results are repeatable in the lab and some important insights into the design can be gained. If the goal of the objectivist is to find the most signal accurate amp, then inexpensive gear such as pro amps achieve the goal. However, many find signal accurate amps to sound objectionable (pun intended).

Moderates are able to correlate objective results with what they are hearing and use lab results to enhance their listening experience. Agreed.

Unfortunately, the above brief does not offer any insights into what is an audiophile. I'll offer this for starters. An audiophile has a subjective sound preference that has been validated through comparison audition of a wide range of gear. This definition is inclusive of all hearing conditions and allows for any gear choice to be made. In short, anyone of any class can be an audiophile.
 
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...I stumbled upon this website (link below) some of us may find interesting. It has to do with taking a scientific, and dispassionate look at claims made regarding our audio hobby, passion, mania....however we describe our interest in audio gear.
I hope you all take it in the spirit I intend it; purely in the interest of getting other points of view in order to better keep a proper perspective about everything audio, and as food for thought.
The Title of the article is "A Brief Guide to Audio for the Skeptical Consumer." (I'm not the author)

https://numeralnine.wordpress.com/2013/10/09/a-brief-guide-to-audio-for-the-skeptical-consumer/

Nice debunk. I imagine the author would be a poor audio salesman.
 
Actually a Magnepan is not a difficult load at all. It is a stable 4 ohm load across the spectrum. Now the addition of ribbon tweeters might change that, but not at the levels where a lot of current is being drawn.

Panel speakers that were difficult loads were full range Martin Logans like the CLS, Acoustats, Apogees, King Sound and a few others. But these are true electrostatics or ribbon speakers.

Magnepans are a standard speaker with a magnet array and voice coil printed on a mylar panel. They may be inefficient, but they are not a difficult load.

Regards
Mister Pig
4 Ohms and low efficiency are difficult for entry level amps, integrateds and receivers. The power supplies of such equipment will certainly be taxed at normal volumes in common rooms.
 
4 Ohms and low efficiency are difficult for entry level amps, integrateds and receivers. The power supplies of such equipment will certainly be taxed at normal volumes in common rooms.

Not the integrated I am working into my system. It should be able to handle that pesky Magnepan.

113518-limited_edition_musical_fidelity_nuvista_m3_integrated_amplifier_close_to_mint_40_amps_peak_curre_.jpg


Disclaimer: Not my specific amp, mine is in transit and due to arrive Monday

Actually the $500 SMG Magnepans were able to run off many a receiver or integrated amp. But they did need a powered subwoofer to really be a full range speaker system. But they were a go to speaker for the hobbyist looking for bang for the buck. Sure they sounded better on good seperates, but they did not melt down a typical Pioneer or Kenwood receiver either. But they were a very flat 4 ohm load, which any component with a half way decent power suppply could handle. But the smaller panel area meant you couldnt hit festival level SPL's. And trying to do that is what often shortened the life of an amplifier because they were asked to supply more power than they could to try to obtain a SPL level that was in reality out of the reach of the amp/speaker combo. So it was not a fault of the speaker or the amplifier, but the owners failure to understand the inherent limitations of this pairing.

Regards
Mister Pig
 
Great articles!!

STILL stick by my 'feelings':
1. LPs sound totally engaging. Not as accurate, but a lot more WOW.
2. CDs put me to sleep. 'Some' sound great but are not engaging - to me. And... after I play 3... I'm fried - bored, & Finished.
3. There is BIG DIFFERENCES in the sound quality of different vintage amps - even when new. Which is why most guys always bought this amp over that amp. Flavor, DEPTH, or whatever. But it is true. If I can hear it, anyone can!

&... "it's a 'soul thing', not a mind thing, which cannot be measured using math, or seen on an oscilloscope ." :) As a10warthog said.
I agree on the albums, I do not care about specs and such. Its the sound that it produces that people like not the specs. I even like the way tape "sounds" over digital regardless if digital is superior on paper. I always have and probably always will.
Receivers not so much except for the qualities of the tone controls. I have two opposite end of the spectrum units 25 years apart and except for the tonal qualities of the tone controls; if set up the same (I mean setting the tone controls on each unit so the speakers sound the same on each) I would not be able to tell the difference if they were behind a curtain.
 
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I can hear the differences in CD players.

I haven't yet heard the magic of vinyl and I'm not saying that it's not there. Maybe I just haven't listened to the right setup.

Most receivers and integrated amps that I have listened to have sounded more different than alike. Maybe if all of them were going through the same preamp there wouldn't be a difference or as much of a difference.

I can't understand why you need bigger gauge speaker cables than the cable that powers your whole system. Not saying it doesn't make a difference but I would have hear it for myself. I have to admit that 14 gauge copper wire is the biggest I have used.
 
ive only experienced the "burn in factor" ONCE and thats when i go new tweeters and mids for one of my old tower speakers. they sounded really muffled for about 2 days then they started to clear up
 
the blog was hard to read for me, I had a hard time getting past some of the big words i could not pronounce. Also the guy tends to run on about things, say's one thing and does the opposite. What I really think is he doing is trying to get attention and its working.
 
Magnepans are notoriously difficult loads. It's likely that your Nikko, Yamaha and Kenwood amps can't deliver current like your Mac and Hafler.

Actually, the Nikko, Yamaha and Kenwood amps are rated at higher outputs that the Mac and Haffler. I am not cranking them up at all, the Mac shows peaks of 10 watts in use - the amp architecture makes a difference.

My La Scales show similar preferences for amps - and no way those need high power.
 
Loved the article! Really liked this Roger Russel quote:
“When confronted with the truth, believers do not want to hear about it. They want to remain in the magical world of fantasy ..."
 
Rain.
The last 4 times I've been to Red Rocks, it has rained on me! ...still going back in June though.
 
I really like that article, so much that I read part two also. Thanks for sharing; I feel a bit "set free." I have two Sony subwoofers that I am not currently using. Maybe I should sell them and get a better one. Peace and goodwill.
 
Sooo, you if you put my subjective opinions in a lab and what I like is found to be repeatable then it becomes objective truth for all of you! Muwhahaha Wait.... I'm in a lab..Oor am I? Am I crazy or is everyone else?:D WHO exactly is in this lab? You or me?
 
I can't honestly believe that article was written by someone who has spent a lot of time actually using hi-fi equipment.

"No difference between CD players" yeah, right! No better way to take all the life out of a system than use cheap source equipment.
 
I disagree on #3, 4, and 6 based on my own experience.

The others, I'll agree on.

#3: Under normal conditions, virtually all audio amplifiers/receivers sound the same (sans EQ). They do not have their own sonic signature that must be carefully paired with speakers.

I have a few amps, some sound better with some speakers - the Magnepans love Mac and my Haffler, they hate my Nikko, Yamaha and Kenwood.

#4: “Burn in” factor—the idea that speakers or electronics sound better after X hours of use—is likely a delusion.

I have noticed it with speakers. Maybe new amps need to "neutralize" via burn in, but I have never owned a new one.

#6 The look and feel of CDs or computers can’t compete with vinyl, which can sound amazing for what it is. But there is no music lost “between the bits.” High quality digital formats are sonically superior to vinyl in every measurable way.

If the original source for the CD and Vinyl is the same, I may agree with this, HOWEVER, many CDs were mastered from inferior sources and so they sound crappy (at one point, anything on CD was "better", so they got lazy and got the CD out as quickly as possible.

My $0.02.

I agree on all points and over time those kinds of opinions don't even get paid attention to. Blanket statements (like those) just don't hold up a lot of the time. Case in point? I'm listening to some cassette that holds up well to other supposedly "better" media....there's a fire starter with some!!
 
I agree with most of that linked article. Like most things, as price goes up returns diminish. The only way to market the super expensive items is to appeal to something beyond performance.
 
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