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Who still listens to their 14 bit first generation cd player?

Discussion in 'Digital Sources' started by Audioo, Apr 20, 2018.

  1. Audioo

    Audioo Active Member

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    Dont you find those old philips type players warm analog sounding?
     

     

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  2. tubed

    tubed Lunatic Member

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    asilker likes this.
  3. Audioo

    Audioo Active Member

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  4. jdurbin1

    jdurbin1 Tandberg enthusiast Subscriber

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    Was still using a Tandberg 3015A which was the earlier dual 14-bit model (think Philips CD150 with overbuilt PS and discrete class A audio section), but moved to the 16-bit version of that machine (same design but based on CD160 w/TDA1541 DAC).

    I like them both.

    John
     
  5. Audioo

    Audioo Active Member

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    327
    How does your Tandberg sound in comparison to the philips?
    Ive got second generation revox the model after b225/226 with single crown i think its called the plus. The early revoxes broke down alot rarely seen one that worked properly or didnt have issues
     
  6. jdurbin1

    jdurbin1 Tandberg enthusiast Subscriber

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    I have limited experience with the original Philips but I can imagine that replacing the original Philips op-amp output section with an entire amp board running class A and discrete transistors throughout (which also includes a dedicated headphone amp) has to put it above the Philips even though they share the digital board & pickup.

    Talk to member Tinman about your Revox players, I think his experience is quite different than yours and he is a master of these Philips based players as well as other early CD machines.

    John
     

     

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  7. botrytis

    botrytis Trying not to be a Small Speaker Hoarder Subscriber

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    14 bits is not what CD quality is, that is less than CD quality. That mean they are not giving you the best out of your CD's. These are the players that gave digital playback a bad name. Jes saying.

    If you enjoy them great, but Digital is one area that has really moved forward since these players.
     
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  8. jdurbin1

    jdurbin1 Tandberg enthusiast Subscriber

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    In fact the dual-14 bit players handle 16-bit content just fine, better in fact than most of the 1st gen 16-bit stuff made in Japan which is actually the stuff that gave digital a bad name (that, and the failure by recording engineers to grasp the essentials for mastering CD's in the early days).

    You might want to read a little more about the very excellent engineering that went into these early 14-bit machines before you consign them to the scrap heap. They did a superb job of pulling that off under duress of time after the consortium made a late decision to adopt 16-bit as the standard.

    John
     
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  9. Poultrygeist

    Poultrygeist Lunatic Member

    I still enjoy my old Rotel RCD 855 which has the TDA 1541a chip. Lost the Rotel's remote but discovered that my Marantz remote operates it.

    [​IMG]
     
  10. WobblySam

    WobblySam Well-Known Member

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    I thought the original Maganvox's shipped with 14 bit converters too. Sony's initial offering, I think, shipped with a 16 bit converter - not that anybody really had a true monotonic 16 bit converter then.
    I love that picture of the Meridian - it almost looks like one of the early piano key VCRs.
     
  11. restorer-john

    restorer-john Addicted Member

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    This simply isn't true. The Philips 4 times OS and linear interpolation gave the first generation machines using the twin ceramic pack TDA-1540Ds 15.4-15.8 bits of resolution- better than the 16bit D/As used by other manufacturers. The Sony CX-20017 used in the CDP-101 outperformed it, but only just.


    With all due respect, the 'consortium' didn't make a late decision to adopt 16bit.

    Philips wanted 14bits because they never set their sights high in anything they did. Sony always were going to do 16bit- they already had 16bit stationary head PCM recorders, as did Soundstream, 3M, Ampex and Matsushita and 16bit production D/As ready to go. Philips thought they'd win the argument, but they lost. They'd bet the house already on 14bit and had nowhere to go. They still couldn't get their machines working well enough to sell, even with the 4x OS filter setup to improve resolution, so they cried and whinged and delayed the worldwide release by six months. Not that it bothered Sony, it gave them half a year to sell in their home market and establish themselves as the experts in Compact Disc.

    The 'DAD convention' was a group of 35 Japanese manufacturers put together in September 1978 and by the 17th November 1978 the format they were to use was agreed to be 16 bit. This information is compiled in a summarised DAD Study Group, Joint Sessions. W62,3. The brief for working groups 2 and 3 was 16bit. They had multiple 'Working Group' sessions.

    At the 67th Convention of the AES in New York, October 31/Nov3 1980, the joint presentation by Philips and Sony engineers covers the standard, including 16 bit quantisation, EFM and CIRC.

    The "General Information on Compact Disc Digital Audio" was published in the JAES Vol29 No 1/1 pages 60-66 in Jan and Feb of 1981 and that was the Sony/Philips agreed format being 16bits. EFM and CIRC were standard at that point and it was all locked in, including the expansion to 4 channel option which they never pursued.

    Philips had plenty of time, but simply weren't up to the task. It's amazing that Kyocera (DA-01) even had their machine (sold to many other OEMs and rebranded), using Philips own chipset (TDA-1540Dx2 and 4x OS filter), being internally marketed in June 1982, 4 months before the official release in Japan and 10 months before Philips finally got a working machine to market.
     

     

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  12. jdurbin1

    jdurbin1 Tandberg enthusiast Subscriber

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    Excellent, I appreciate the correction and thanks for posting that detailed history.

    John
     
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  13. botrytis

    botrytis Trying not to be a Small Speaker Hoarder Subscriber

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    Nonsense. The filters used in players of that era are what caused the 'ringing' problems that gave digital a bad name. Most of that has been fixed with newer filters and DAC chips. It is fact.
     
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  14. jdurbin1

    jdurbin1 Tandberg enthusiast Subscriber

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    Please cite the fact. Opinion is one thing, but if you want to claim factual basis you should back it up. Ringing simply has not been an issue for me EVER on these early dual 14-bit machines.

    John
     
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  15. hemiram

    hemiram Active Member

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    I had a Magnavox FD-3030 for many years until it began having problems with the motor that moved the laser getting weak, and losing it's tracking. If you let it play and play, it would eventually start sounding fine. I really liked it's sound, it was much better than my friend's first gen 16 bit Sony and Technics players. The Technics unit ran insanely hot and it soon failed. The Sony still worked, as of last year, but as always, it sounds pretty bad. I replaced my Magnavox with a Sony 5 disc lazy susan ES player. I haven't used it in a long time, I don't play CD's much anymore, except in my car. I have a lot of them I've burned over the last 24 years. Hard to believe I've had a burner since 1994 (A 2x Memorex that was $$$).
     
  16. maxhifi

    maxhifi AK Subscriber Subscriber

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    I have a Philips CD-101, I don't listen to CD often, but when I do, I use and enjoy the old Philips, I have always liked how it sounds.
     

     

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  17. botrytis

    botrytis Trying not to be a Small Speaker Hoarder Subscriber

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    archimago.blogspot.com/2018/01/audiophile-myth-260-detestable-digital.html

    You need to get out and read the new data and tests on the older players.
     
  18. restorer-john

    restorer-john Addicted Member

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    Botrytis, the above referenced blog post contradicts itself, is poorly written, and certainly doesn't support the notion you are championing here.

    FIR in oversampling linear interpolation filters create pre-ringing.

    IIR in non oversampled machines do not create pre-ringing.

    Well, here you go:

    Here is an ACTUAL wide bandwidth scope capture of a single 0dBFS impulse replayed on the world's first CD player, one of my Sony CDP-101s. Notice the complete LACK of pre-ringing, there is only post impulse ringing which is normal.

    RIGOL Print Screen23-02-2018 12_15_20 PM.842.jpeg


    And here is a FIR 24/192 CS 4396 based professional CD player at 100uS/Div so you can see the pre-ringing and the post ringing... Whilst the post event ringing is better controlled, the addition of multiple cycles of pre-event ringing is a by-product of the system and is unwanted.

    pmd325.jpeg

    Feel free to post your 'tests on the older players' that support your position. :)
     

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    Last edited: May 6, 2018
  19. jdurbin1

    jdurbin1 Tandberg enthusiast Subscriber

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    Nicely written...

    John
     
  20. twiiii

    twiiii Addicted Member

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    We sold CDP 101's and they were horrid. Compared to Phillips based players from Europe they Sony was very strident and edgy. They forced me to wait awhile before getting my big toe wet buying a Revox CD player.
     
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