Whole-House Backup Generators

Dr Tinear

AK Subscriber
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Does anyone here have experience with a whole-house backup generator that runs on natural gas? Third World Power and Light -- my pet name for DTE Energy, the electric utility that serves most of southeast Michigan -- served up another of their periodic outages last night. The outages of several seconds or minutes that knock out all the electric clocks in the house and require the smart thermostat to reboot itself are annoying, but not nearly as irritating as last night's outage of nearly three hours.

I'm now considering a whole-house backup generator, fueled with natural gas, with an automatic transfer switch that starts the generator and switches automatically from utility power to generator power. If you have experience with one of these or recommendations on which ones are worth considering, I invite you to share your insights in this thread.
 
Yep ,I've installed dozens of Generac and Onan backup/standby generators over the years.
Automatic transfer switch and natural gas are definitely the way to go.
I've done a few Diesel ones where the customer wanted that fuel.
The Diesel generators really do well for long-term or primary power needs as they are continuous duty rated.

Y2K was a huge market !

Bob
 
well you need to determine your projected 'real' power load. Its easy to get a 20Kw unit installed that just flips a switch. BUT

what most people do is get a 3500watt or higher (6 being most common) and using a gentrans switch where critical circuits ONLY are xferred over - say sump pumps, well pumps, fridge, basic lighting etc. That saves a house in most cases but the dark outlets on the gen trans, stay dark.

better today: there is a 'relay' powered switch that is held on in the POCO position by POCO current. if it drops, it switches to the center position and triggers e-start on a genset. when the genset comes online its current (thru a delay) pulls the relay the other way and connects the whole house.

this is a better solution in the fact that it leaves ANY circuit energized. BUT! you have to be cognizant of your load - if you have a 7.5kw genset, dont have the fridge on, lights, tvs and then toss a load in the electric dryer...and if you have an electric hot water tank - is it part of the fun or not? they start at what 5000 watts?

since you say you have natural gas, it might be the case your dryer and tank are gas powered (and heat?) so your consumption calcs are easier.

and an even better solution is an integrated panel that when run by the genset, when the load approaches a certain limit, it starts load shedding by knocking off circuits deemed not so critical - certain lights, appliances, the xbox etc. (the stereo is on the critical path right?)

Id recommend getting a northern catalog and reading it to see what is out there - THEN go shopping.

Your genset will end up being generac I bet - they make really great dual fuel enclosures with automatic exercising that are cheap. 7.5kw gas/6.5natural gas are the most popular (in a dual fuel situation, the natural gas one will be lower rated due to the BTU content of the fuels in the dual purpose carb.

things you will need to consider and perhaps engage an electrician for: separately derived ground or not? this is driven by local codes, the type of genset used and how you are switching over. separate is better, but a lot more work and $$.

and natural gas, the gas co will need to replace your meter and regulator as a standard household one cannot pass enuf gas to run a genset.

if this is just infrequent for you and the POCO is being buttheads now due to recovering from some incident ... a 5-6kw stand alone with a 3 conductor power cord into a dual purpose outlet can suffice - you have to develop a safety procedure to use it so you dont kill linemen or blow up gensets and thats on you.

It was never much a problem in my life growing up - power went out - adventure!

but I was in beacon NY in 95 when a huge snowstorm hit - 36 inches in a day and people were without for a week. we were without for a day and I had a 5k that did lights and fridge and water circ pumps for 2 houses. at the time I was in apprenticeship to get my license so for the year afterwards, I was popular setting up systems from a portable to a pad mount due to the storm...mostly to all my co workers who had to suffer.

Then in 2004 those string of EF-1 that hity NW pa and knocked over the kinzua bridge put a thousand square miles of PA real estate dark for a week to 10 days. we ourselves were out for 8.

so much infrastructure was destroyed it took crews from 11 states to wire it back up and it was faulty as all get out for the next 2 years! but by that time I had my place in the woods all hooked up and the same 5K I had in beacon now ran my whole gas-fired house EXCEPT for the dryer. I was working from home and since phone and cable were not as down, had internet and entertainment. I had to drive 22 miles to get gas 30 gallons at a time and let me tell ya, when you are bordering a huge state park/forest (cook forest) and there is no power for 15 miles in any it is dark like you have never seen and the wolves and coyotes come in close to the house! but long story short, everyone up there lost food, but being hills folk, it was not the apocalypse it is in the city, most of the genset systems I put in 10 years hence were camps, owned by city slickers that want auto trans for a house they visit 3 times a year....

anyways, dont talk to a salesman, talk to an electrician for local codes/consideration and pull the trigger on the unit - portable small K or pad mount and go from there.
 
and natural gas, the gas co will need to replace your meter and regulator as a standard household one cannot pass enuf gas to run a genset.
You might also ask them how long they can maintain mains pressure during a widespread long term outage. Even if their compression doesn't use grid power, i'll bet the telemetry that controls it does.

IMO, reliable long term back-up power means having stored fuel on hand. Diesel is king.
 
Or.....

You might just consider solar panels......the Tesla solar roof with solar panels that are roof tiles hooked up to the Tesla Powerwall and coming to a Home Depot near you. Enabling people to get off the grid completely....
 
Or.....

You might just consider solar panels......the Tesla solar roof with solar panels that are roof tiles hooked up to the Tesla Powerwall and coming to a Home Depot near you. Enabling people to get off the grid completely....

I have been looking at a similar solution for our class-c. we do a lot of boondocking and while we have an onan 4k on board, its pretty thirsty and throaty for just keeping the dual batteries topped off. On non-AC situations I broke down last year and got a coleman 2.2k inverter setup but ideal would be a couple 150w panels on the roof in the luggage area with an n-power battery controller. that should handle hotel loads during the day (mostly fridge controls, HW, radio etc) and have the batteries up to snuff each night for the lights, tv you name it. Im working on it, just my most important commodity I have the least of: time

I know on paper the technology SAYS it can be done, but in reality, the panels drop in efficiency on their own, without environmental concerns, as do the storage mechanisms. WE are getting close...but it is not THE solution yet... To make it work on a practical basis if you are not 'Mr Deep Pockets' is to do a top down review of the house and go as green as much as possible...led lighting, gas powered heats, no AC etc. new digital stuff makes things a lot easier today - 12W for a 55inch tv vs 500 for a 19 inch tube and so forth...but parasitic soft-on loads start to add up. Too bad they dont make household sized absorption fridges....
 
I have an Onan 16kw diesel installed back in the Y2K panic era.
It runs the entire house,shop and garage including whole house a/c .
I would have done natural gas but we don't have it out in the country.
Propane was out because prices were and still are too volatile plus you can't store alot unless you commit to a 1000 gallon underground tank besides we already had oil heat here with a 1000 gallon storage supply.

I don't have to worry about turning off appliances,load shedding and all that other nonsense.

I'm a licensed electrician and refuse to install those dangerous "back feed the dryer outlet and I promise to turn off the main breaker" setups for people's little gas powered 3000-10,000 emergency generators.

I can't tell you how many of those little 6 or 8 circuit "feed only the absolutely necessary circuit" panels I've been asked to remove and install a true automatic transfer switch with a capable generator over the years.
I have a half dozen of those panels in my storage shed if you want one.

I don't care for our own utility rates and have looked into solar but only if I can go off grid.
If you go off grid then you're on your own for all costs of the install (at least here in NYS),no tax breaks,credits,etc.

A 12-14 KW ground mount solar panel system is around $10,000 to 12,000.
I won't go roof mount for two reasons:
I don't care who installs it ,if you have a roof leak(s) you're on your own-you can wipe your butt with any promises,warranties,etc.
There have been multiple reports,instances of fires being caused by faulty installations,water in interconnecting panel junction boxes ,etc, all across the country.
We've had four instances here in upstate NY in the last few years.

The Tesla Powerwall is $6000 per unit ,not including installation (which BTW THEY have to do-so when Home Depot was selling them for $6000 you still had to pay for installation).

Wirh all this I was still seriously considering until I learned that the Powerwall system could only store enough ampacity for 3-5 hours.

Wind power!
Don't even go there.
I've installed two 150' wind generators for our company when we thought it was the "next big thing".
I was shocked because in spite of them being as big and tall as they are, they were only 5 KW each ,both were decommissioned after 4-5 years because they ended up using more electricity in standby mode (not enough wind or ,believe it or not,too much wind speed so rotors were in lock down).

So until they come out with more affordable/increased ampacity batteries I'll have to be content with what I have.

Bob
 
My parents have a neighbor who's got one. Loudest thing on the block. Given the guy's an asshole, I wouldn't put it past him to have intentionally made it loud so EVERYONE can hear his generator running while they're out of power.
 
The backup generator is nice, but there still will be the power sag with the reboots and resets.

I too have untrustworthy power and have long considered the idea, but haven't yet acted, thus
I sweat bullets about the basement sump, and have a bunch of blue ice packs in the freezer.
 
I have an Onan 16kw diesel installed back in the Y2K panic era.
It runs the entire house,shop and garage including whole house a/c .
I would have done natural gas but we don't have it out in the country.
Propane was out because prices were and still are too volatile plus you can't store alot unless you commit to a 1000 gallon underground tank besides we already had oil heat here with a 1000 gallon storage supply.

I don't have to worry about turning off appliances,load shedding and all that other nonsense.

I'm a licensed electrician and refuse to install those dangerous "back feed the dryer outlet and I promise to turn off the main breaker" setups for people's little gas powered 3000-10,000 emergency generators.

I can't tell you how many of those little 6 or 8 circuit "feed only the absolutely necessary circuit" panels I've been asked to remove and install a true automatic transfer switch with a capable generator over the years.
I have a half dozen of those panels in my storage shed if you want one.

I don't care for our own utility rates and have looked into solar but only if I can go off grid.
If you go off grid then you're on your own for all costs of the install (at least here in NYS),no tax breaks,credits,etc.

A 12-14 KW ground mount solar panel system is around $10,000 to 12,000.
I won't go roof mount for two reasons:
I don't care who installs it ,if you have a roof leak(s) you're on your own-you can wipe your butt with any promises,warranties,etc.
There have been multiple reports,instances of fires being caused by faulty installations,water in interconnecting panel junction boxes ,etc, all across the country.
We've had four instances here in upstate NY in the last few years.

The Tesla Powerwall is $6000 per unit ,not including installation (which BTW THEY have to do-so when Home Depot was selling them for $6000 you still had to pay for installation).

Wirh all this I was still seriously considering until I learned that the Powerwall system could only store enough ampacity for 3-5 hours.

Wind power!
Don't even go there.
I've installed two 150' wind generators for our company when we thought it was the "next big thing".
I was shocked because in spite of them being as big and tall as they are, they were only 5 KW each ,both were decommissioned after 4-5 years because they ended up using more electricity in standby mode (not enough wind or ,believe it or not,too much wind speed so rotors were in lock down).

So until they come out with more affordable/increased ampacity batteries I'll have to be content with what I have.

Bob

Great info, its nice to actually read from someone who knows what they are talking about.
 
My folks have a 14K Generac (propane version).

It's been working great for about 10 years, no problem with the auto switch or anything.
 
I own a Generac and love it.

6 years now.

I paid extra to have it installed further from the house really helps with noise.

I had to pay extra because my gas meter was deemed to small and had to have gas company put a bigger one in.

If you have a tank less hot water gas heater you may have to replace it with conventional one.
 
Thanks to everyone who posted -- you've shared some great information and given me a lot to think about!

Solar is probably out of the question for me, since I have a smallish lot and an aggressive HOA. Roof-mounting of the solar array would be my only option, and I don't really want the water leak and fire risks that a roof mount entails.

I like the idea of a generator set sized to power the whole house. That probably puts me in 20 kW territory for a 2800 SF house with central A/C and a hot tub. The hot tub heaters alone dissipate 10 kW when they're running. Thankfully the furnace, water heater, range, and dryer all use natural gas, so the other electrical loads for the house are not excessive. About how much should I expect to spend on a gen set of this size, installed, with an automatic transfer switch and an upsized meter on the natural gas line? Also, what sort of routine maintenance do these generators need to keep them running reliably?
 
I'll give a bit of advice that is 100% hearsay.

I have a friend/customer who works on gen sets for a living. According to him, for some time Generac and Multi-Quip shopped for generator ends and controller/regulators overseas, and by price. When they go bad, they are virtually throw-aways except for the engine. No reliable schematics, and parts are tough to find.

Another thing - check the RPM of the generator. If the motor is running at 3600RPM instead of 1800, it takes it's toll, and makes alot more noise.
 
The backup generator is nice, but there still will be the power sag with the reboots and resets.

I too have untrustworthy power and have long considered the idea, but haven't yet acted, thus
I sweat bullets about the basement sump, and have a bunch of blue ice packs in the freezer.
Any free space in my freezers have old one gallon milk jugs filled 3/4 with water and kept frozen in case of outages .
 
As a general rule of thumb:
All Diesel generators run at 1800rpm (up to 35kw)
I've installed 70 and 100kw 3 phase Cat powered Diesel ones that run slower.

Most every standby propane/Nat gas generators above 20kw are water cooled and run at 1800rpm

Genarac,Briggs and Stratton and Kohler propane/Nat gas standby generators less than 20 kw are almost alwsys air cooled and run at 3600.

If you want the least expensive pad mount hard wired auto transfer generator for the occasional one to four day outages then the Generac,Briggs or Kohler is the way to go if you have propane or natural gas.
Contrary to popular opinion , in a local power outage calamity natural gas service won't be interrupted.

If you want something that's quieter during operation,is not dependant on the natural gas delivery system in event of a major failure or propane delivery truck not making it then a 1800 rpm Diesel water cooled generator is the ticket along with some fuel oil storage.

They can run for weeks on end if needed or run as required to top off your Tesla Powerwall batteries because your solar panels didn't make enough power during the long winter cloudy days.


Bob
 
I have a generac, it was with the house when I bought it. I had to put a few grand into getting it back up and running after years of neglect from the previous owner, but it was well worth it. The unit is about 20 years old, maybe a newer one is better or quieter.... who knows. My biggest complaint of the unit I have is that the box is rusting pretty bad.

In a particularly bad outage a few years back, it was on for about 5 straight days without a hiccup (only shutting it off to change the oil). It doesn't power all of the house, but most of it...

Keep in mind that it takes about 30 seconds of no power for the generator to turn on, so your clocks will still go out.
 
I have a friend/customer who works on gen sets for a living. According to him, for some time Generac and Multi-Quip shopped for generator ends and controller/regulators overseas, and by price. When they go bad, they are virtually throw-aways except for the engine. No reliable schematics, and parts are tough to find..

This was not my experience with my generac.
 
I've been on the fence for a portable.
For reasons that escape me, I have pretty bulletproof utility power. In 11 years I've lost 2 days of power (different instances)
It's tough to justify the install cost based on that (I can do it myself)
Bob , I'll take one of those little transfer switch set ups. It'd make a portable a little easier.
I'll reach out to you directly. Thanks for the offer :thumbsup:
OTOH
My sister lost power for 14 (?) Days after Sandy.
She had a whole house generac put in (NG)
She said never again .
Then again , I don't know if she's lost power since.
Another thought ,
They have to be maintained.
Oil changed, battery terminals cleaned (condition checked)
Plus they run periodically to keep battery charged.
My point is its not a one time cost. It has some overhead and maintenance .
Something to consider
 
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I've been on the fence for a portable.
For reasons that escape me, I have pretty bulletproof utility power. In 11 years I've lost 2 days of power (different instances)
It's tough to justify the install cost based on that (I can do it myself)
Bob , I'll take one of those little transfer switch set ups. It'd make a portable a little easier.
I'll reach out to you directly. Thanks for the offer :thumbsup:
OTOH
My sister lost power for 14 (?) Days after Sandy.
She had a whole house generac put in (NG)
She said never again .
Then again , I don't know if she's lost power since.
Another thought ,
They have to be maintained.
Oil changed, battery terminals cleaned (condition checked)
Plus they run periodically to keep battery charged.
My point is its not a one time cost. It has some overhead and maintenance .
Something to consider
I bought a portable in the winter of 2010. In 2009 we went for 3 weeks without power due to an ice storm that crippled every power company in this area. I've had very little use for it in 8 1/2 years, but I know just as soon as I get rid of it that I'd have a need for it.
 
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