Why I'm turned off of modern gear - A Rant.

[62caddy]

Maybe it was speakers, the room acoustics or the source material - or all three - that were "dreadfully insipid".

A lot of people also seem compelled to deride McIntosh, for no other reason than it is McIntosh. So prejudiced, any listening experience is tainted at the outset, regardless of how well it performs.

I will say however, I was a bit underwhelmed by the Mc demo system myself. But that was certainly no fault of the electronics.

My apologies to the OP for the diversion...if still following the merry proceedings.

 

[E-Stat]

Maybe it was speakers, the room acoustics or the source material - or all three - that were "dreadfully insipid".

It is easy to find any number of folks who agree with my evaluation. Here's an engineer's perspective over at AA.

I did enjoy hearing 2301s at Sea Cliff driving Magneplanar 3.7s sourced by an EMM Labs player and Veloce preamp using Valhalla cabling. Better than I would REF250s or current MB-450s? Who knows? Fortunately, you can turn off the obnoxious cyclop's eyes.

 

[twiiii]

I guess equipment I have purchased since 2000 would qualify. MY C-34v had a switch fail that was an easy fix by AudioClassics. My MX-119 which I had for almost 10 years had a minor hick-up, when I traded it for MX 151. The MVP 861 had to have its laser replaced after 10 years but is still going strong. My MC 206 has a noisy volume control I cleaned and I replaced all the meter lamps. The 207's are basically like new. MY MP 100 is working like new. The Dynavector 20X2 is performing better.

Now compare that to the previous equipment. The C-29 had the back end of a tone control separate, but I fixed that. The face plate developed a chip in the glass which had to be replaced. The MR-80 developed push button issues and intermittent tuning which Audio Classics had to repair. The MPI-6 display tube failed after 40 years. The Stanton 881, 981 and Shure V-15 MR V and Ortofon moving coils all failed. or couldn't be restored. The Crown power amps needed rebuilding every 10 years. The MC 2505 is 47 years old and has only been cleaned a few times. The Nads for the Motorhome only last a few years as did the Gateway computers, Pioneer Laser players. The Nakamichis are still going strong. The Revoxs and professional Ampex have all been sold or are in storage. . So I would say in my view Mac still builds a quality product and always has. Crown treated me well even repairing things a no cost when the units were approaching 30 ears old. Pioneer stuff Is still doing pretty well approaching 20 years old as are a few Marantz pieces.

As for modern HT stuff I plan on keeping my 151 a long time as I do the 891. They were either bought as preowned or Demos. I can see where the 891 will eventually fail. Lasers don't last for ever. The 151 isn't suspetable to static discharge like the 119 so should have a longer life. Te 20 X2 will wear out too, nothing new there.

I can see where mid priced HT stuff isn't built to last a life time as like PC computers they become obsolete in less than three years. So why build them to last more than 5 years. And with all the new technology being made available keeping the costs down is the most important thing for hardware manufacturers so they can sell the soft ware and you will be ready for the next round of upgrades. Now that everyone is streaming, Almost, equipment should last longer. The wisest thing I ever did was dumping PC's and going with iMac and Mac Book Pro. No repairs, no security issues, upgraded software at no cost to make our units better. When is the hifi Market going to catch, on. Some of the top of the line stuff has, but the equipment most folks buy is planned to be replaced with new technology, so why build the equipment to last?

It just proves the old saying if you are having a music reproduction relationship and want to make it long term. Your best choice is to buy Mcintosh. Over the long hall it gives the best performance lowest failure rate and the lowest overall cost for the long hall. I paid around $350.00 for my 2505 47 years ago. My former C-28 now owned by the third owner is still going strong. The MR-77 is still performing well, too. I' don't know what happened to the 2 2100's, but I can imagine like my 2505 with a little cleaning should be doing quite well. I hope who ever has my C-29. MX-119, can say the same in the future.

 

[ev13wt]

Really? My Yammy RX-A3010 seems ok on the volume knob. Or maybe you don't consider that modern? Although it doesn't sound as good as my old school Pioneer AV amp.


Josh

I'd have to touch it.

If it moves on its shaft even a bit, I don't like it.

The ultimate setup is an actual metal shaft, two bearings, zero play in all directions exept vol up/down. And that must have a slight mechanical resistance. Indents, optional. If - then very closely spaced.

 

[62caddy]

It is easy to find any number of folks who agree with my evaluation. Here's an engineer's perspective over at AA.

Maybe that guy simply doesn't like uncolored sound. Not that that there's anything wrong with that, many in the same camp and freely admit to the fact.

I see the post made in 2002 meaning the units in question were a minimum of 25 years of age to a maximum of 35. So ripe for fresh caps and a general overhaul. I'm sure it doesn't need to pointed out the difference in performance between good and bad caps.

C28's weakness will always be the sheer quantity of pots used in the signal path. No question about that. Perhaps sensing this could be problematic down the road, Mc wisely never used that many in a product since. Seriously though, the C28 is particularly well regarded for its phono section which some claim is among the best ever released from Mc. Caveat: Only when completely refurbished and restored to spec. If not, all bets are off.

Same applies to MC2105 and pretty much all vintage equipment - McIntosh or otherwise.

Again my apologies to the OP.

 

[ev13wt]

I guess equipment I have purchased since 2000 would qualify. MY C-34v had a switch fail that was an easy fix by AudioClassics. My MX-119 which I had for almost 10 years had a minor hick-up, when I traded it for MX 151. The MVP 861 had to have its laser replaced after 10 years but is still going strong. My MC 206 has a noisy volume control I cleaned and I replaced all the meter lamps. The 207's are basically like new. MY MP 100 is working like new. The Dynavector 20X2 is performing better.

Now compare that to the previous equipment. The C-29 had the back end of a tone control separate, but I fixed that. The face plate developed a chip in the glass which had to be replaced. The MR-80 developed push button issues and intermittent tuning which Audio Classics had to repair. The MPI-6 display tube failed after 40 years. The Stanton 881, 981 and Shure V-15 MR V and Ortofon moving coils all failed. or couldn't be restored. The Crown power amps needed rebuilding every 10 years. The MC 2505 is 47 years old and has only been cleaned a few times. The Nads for the Motorhome only last a few years as did the Gateway computers, Pioneer Laser players. The Nakamichis are still going strong. The Revoxs and professional Ampex have all been sold or are in storage. . So I would say in my view Mac still builds a quality product and always has. Crown treated me well even repairing things a no cost when the units were approaching 30 ears old. Pioneer stuff Is still doing pretty well approaching 20 years old as are a few Marantz pieces.

As for modern HT stuff I plan on keeping my 151 a long time as I do the 891. They were either bought as preowned or Demos. I can see where the 891 will eventually fail. Lasers don't last for ever. The 151 isn't suspetable to static discharge like the 119 so should have a longer life. Te 20 X2 will wear out too, nothing new there.

I can see where mid priced HT stuff isn't built to last a life time as like PC computers they become obsolete in less than three years. So why build them to last more than 5 years. And with all the new technology being made available keeping the costs down is the most important thing for hardware manufacturers so they can sell the soft ware and you will be ready for the next round of upgrades. Now that everyone is streaming, Almost, equipment should last longer. The wisest thing I ever did was dumping PC's and going with iMac and Mac Book Pro. No repairs, no security issues, upgraded software at no cost to make our units better. When is the hifi Market going to catch, on. Some of the top of the line stuff has, but the equipment most folks buy is planned to be replaced with new technology, so why build the equipment to last?

It just proves the old saying if you are having a music reproduction relationship and want to make it long term. Your best choice is to buy Mcintosh. Over the long hall it gives the best performance lowest failure rate and the lowest overall cost for the long hall. I paid around $350.00 for my 2505 47 years ago. My former C-28 now owned by the third owner is still going strong. The MR-77 is still performing well, too. I' don't know what happened to the 2 2100's, but I can imagine like my 2505 with a little cleaning should be doing quite well. I hope who ever has my C-29. MX-119, can say the same in the future.

I'd probably own a Mcintosh, but for me, their design is just way too much. To bold, too blue, and those switches on the front panel, yuck. 2 dollar switches on an expensive amp, meh.

But then again, I'd rather drive Porsche than Ferrari, Corvette or Mustang.

 

[E-Stat]

Maybe that guy simply doesn't like uncolored sound.

Actually, I've always found Mac tonally neutral. In the case of their first generation SS stuff, however, veiled and flat in perspective. Ever compare a similar vintage SP-3a to the C-28? Or a 70s vintage Threshold amp to a 2105?

I see the post made in 2002 meaning the units in question were a minimum of 25 years of age to a maximum of 35. So ripe for fresh caps and a general overhaul. I'm sure it doesn't need to pointed out the difference in performance between good and bad caps.

That the comments were posted in 2002 doesn't mean the experience was at the same time. As for aging components, such would also have been the case for the...

"I loved my solid state Mac stuff until someone brought over a beat-to-hell PAS-3x and a rusty Stereo-70. That was my awakening."

 

[62caddy]

McIntosh rotary controls are solid aluminum. No $2 knobs here.

 

[E-Stat]

Over the long hall it gives the best performance lowest failure rate and the lowest overall cost for the long hall.

It's all about priorities. My first one - absent from your list - is sound quality.

I've owned hand built Audio Research gear for nearly forty years with few problems. A $.99 IC timer failed on my SP-9 years ago and it would not wake up from mute. I owned a Threshold Stasis 3 amp for thirty five years trouble-free. Yes, I proactively replaced the big Mallory caps after about 25 just for good measure. One of my '01 VTL amps had a problem with the power switch. Bea sent me two so that I could also replace the one on the other amp. A coupling cap failed on one and again, was sent a replacement - well outside warranty.

There are a number of companies who have been making high quality, hand assembled gear for decades.

 

[62caddy]

Actually, I've always found Mac tonally neutral. In the case of their first generation SS stuff, however, veiled and flat in perspective. Ever compare a similar vintage SP-3a to the C-28? Or a 70s vintage Threshold amp to a 2105?


That the comments were posted in 2002 doesn't mean the experience was at the same time. As for aging components, such would have been the case for the:

"I loved my solid state Mac stuff until someone brought over a beat-to-hell PAS-3x and a rusty Stereo-70. That was my awakening."

For every one of him, there are many more who would disagree.

In any case, it's foolish to take much stock in some errant internet posting from an individual who's hearing preferences are completely unknown, from equipment whose condition is unknown.

 

[E-Stat]

In any case, it's foolish to take much stock in some errant internet posting from an individual who's hearing preferences are completely unknown, from equipment in condition unknown.

Absolutely. I trust my own observations as they were profoundly evident even in the 70s when the gear was new, much less in today's world.

That system's MPI-4 "maximum performance indicator" didn't help.

 

[bhunter]

Actually, I've always found Mac tonally neutral. In the case of their first generation SS stuff, however, veiled and flat in perspective. Ever compare a similar vintage SP-3a to the C-28? Or a 70s vintage Threshold amp to a 2105?


That the comments were posted in 2002 doesn't mean the experience was at the same time. As for aging components, such would also have been the case for the...

"I loved my solid state Mac stuff until someone brought over a beat-to-hell PAS-3x and a rusty Stereo-70. That was my awakening."

Yes! One sounds musical and full of, for lack of a better term, life. The other sounds a bit dull in comparison. McIntosh makes great equipment, but hasn't really been a player at the top tier for decades. I do like the timeless styling, but I too find the movement of the meters distracting.

 

[62caddy]

I find the MPI4 valuable aid in cartridge setup (used with Audio News' Test Record), tuning (FM) and helping maintain channel balance.

 

[62caddy]

C'mon fellas you're killing me.

Anytime you're in up in NE PA, drop me a line and come listen to what all McIntosh electronics + modern Polk speakers sounds like. I think you might be pleasantly surprised

 

[elcoholic]

Which will catch on fire if the lint is not cleaned out of it. ANY dryer, whatever age will catch on fire.

Agreed. I should have said vs a wiz bang TOTL dryer with the bells and whistles and the potential to need a new board costing perhaps as much as the one I bought.

edit: You made me look. The newish one doesn't have an access panel below the drum to vacuum out the lint. ugh!

 

[jetstream]

2 dollar switches on an expensive amp, meh.

McIntosh rotary controls are solid aluminum. No $2 knobs here.

Rotary knobs maybe, but the switches do look cheap.

 

[BigElCat]

Just because it's priced to much for your budget or what you want to spend doesn't mean anything.

Yeah it does. It means they can't have it (unless they steal it).

I would say people talking like this and owning 40-50 year old used equipment saying it's better, couldn't afford that equipment when new either.

That's why they bought it used.

I'm not going to resort to name calling.

You have a spiritual blindness. We hope it's a temporary condition.

 

[E-Stat]

Anytime you're in up in NE PA, drop me a line and come listen to what all McIntosh electronics + modern Polk speakers sounds like. I think you might be pleasantly surprised

Do the 1977-81 era electronics sound considerably better than their predecessors? I would certainly hope so!

I am quite familiar with the sound of upper model Polk speakers (LSi series) since they are used in the HT - at least center and surrounds since I shelved the LSi9s for Acoustat 1+1 full range electrostats. Decent boxes for the money.

We have very different points of reference.

 

[E-Stat]

I find the MPI4 valuable aid in... helping maintain channel balance.

I use my left and right ears.

 

[E-Stat]

I do like the timeless styling, but I too find the movement of the meters distracting.

As recently as 2008, the BFMs were advertised on their website as being at the top of their "core values". Just like their towels. Who else puts them on preamps and turntables? Ever clip a preamp or wonder why Placido Domingo mysteriously sounds like Lurch?

They are the electronics equivalent to Harley-Davidson - rich heritage, high "gee-whiz-Wally" factor and reliance upon cosmetics. Both do, however, indeed enjoy high resale value if not 100% across the board as some opine.