Why No Love For Technics 1200 By Audio Stores and Audiophiles?

[E-Stat]

No it was measured, and this comment sounds snobbish.

Had to smile about the original comment. The Thin Gap motor used in the VPI Direct, however, addresses this challenge.

Maybe a cheap belt drive can't hold speed or one with a warn out belt, but a good high end table will hold speed correctly.

More lack of exposure to better. I use a Phoenix Engineering Eagle AC regenerating power supply with my VPI and I'm pretty sure your SOTAs also use a similar approach for locked in stability and lack of pitch variance.

 

[desertrat748]

Why no love? Personally, just listening to what everyone is trying to say, glean out the useful: Use the best you can afford and whatever sounds best to you. There are a lot of places you can spend $$$ to make your vinyl sound good. Cartridge, tonearm, table, preamp, amp, cables, speakers, on and on. Have fun in the quest, play within your means.

There are clearly better out there but it's like everything else. How fast do you want to go and how much $$$ do you have to spend?

There are some reviews out there that chase down the best tables, carts, and preamps etc. Do some research and draw your own conclusions. Use whatever makes you happy until you find something better. At some point, stop and enjoy the music.

 

[4-2-7]

Personally, just listening to what everyone is trying to say, glean out the useful: Use the best you can afford and whatever sounds best to you.

Best comment award...

No body gets better sound in this hobby putting blinders on and thinking there is nothing better.

 

[UncleBingo]

The discernment of sonic subtleties is probably not best left to someone displaying this in their signature:

View attachment 1169024

Excepting that thousands of recording engineers have been using JBL's for decades to do precisely that; discern sonic subtleties.

One could also put forth the argument that the sonic subtleties your system "reveals" could be considered a distortion of the artists/engineers intent.

 

[Cosmo-D]

No it was measured, and this comment sounds snobbish.

It hasn't been to my knowledge. http://archimago.blogspot.ca/2014/08/measurements-technics-sl-1200-m3d-wow.html Here are some measurements. It also has a link to an article comparing talking about the VPI DD and a Continuum Caliburn. IIRC correctly there has been like set of measurements posted on the internet showing something that may be cogging on the 1200. You can look at the speed measurements yourself. The aren't many variations in them at all. The is nothing that would indicate cogging, or "hunt-and-pecking". How is it snobbish to claim that audiophile press essentially made stuff up when they routinely give glowing reviews to expensive USB cables and claim cables and the like have directionality? If anything the whole high-end belt-drive is snobbish, since it is based on an unwarranted sense of superiority. Belt drives don't measure any better than a decent DD and they don't have any more mechanical isolation (it's impossible: they fundamentally have more parts that can vibrate and cause noise they're not any mechanically simpler). A belt drive has a seperate motor (which has bearing and the like) which itself could become an unbalanced mass (its pretty big and has parts projecting off the top of it) which could potentially vibrate and make noise. There is also the possibility of noise from the main the bearing and the platter moving about. The Technics only has noise at spindle where platter is rotating because drive component is not in contact with platter which is the rotor. It is more complicated to implement, but is ultimately mechanically simpler with fewer parts than can generate noise. The motor for belt drive can potentially vibrate at an audible frequency because the RPMs are so much higher than on a DD.

 

[JP]

SL-1200 MKII+ exhibit no measurable cogging.

 

[4-2-7]

.So these companies sought some way to criticize the technology and make the case that the belt-drive approach was superior. One such knock against DD was something called cogging which could be neither measured nor quantified in any way yet was nonetheless claimed by by audio snobs to plague all DD tables.

How is it snobbish to claim that audiophile press essentially made stuff up

That's not what was said. so are they audiophile press or audio snobs? that post was meant to demean and that's why I called it snobbish to me. Not to mention it was trying to bring in a drive system argument as you are now, none of them are best or perfect. But again snobish you wanted to demean again with that also.

they don't have any more mechanical isolation (it's impossible:

Again untrue, your on a mythical roll, now if you think this statement is correct you should post a vid doing the same as below, I'll eagerly await you vid. Oh and you can pick any DD you want.

 

[ODS123]

The new ones are 1200 USD. There are plenty of great TT's that are cheaper or the same price and not many people are really buying any more.

Are you referring to new SL-1200s?? ..Actually, the least expensive is the SL-1200GR which is $1600. ..I bought one (the SL-1210GR, which the black version) last week to replace my SL-1200mk2. ..And while $1600 is wayyy more than they originally cost, it's still seems like a bargain when set alongside other $1600 present day tables I've seen. There's just no comparing the fit/finish, heft, and general build quality. .Just MHO.

 

[desertrat748]

^ what happened to take some time to “sit back and enjoy the music “?

Life is too short

 

[Djcoolray]

Like a video solves something.....

Hitachi PS-58

Would be a great David and Goliath comparison !!!!

 

[Cosmo-D]

That's not what was said. so are they audiophile press or audio snobs? that post was meant to demean and that's why I called it snobbish to me. Not to mention it was trying to bring in a drive system argument as you are now, none of them are best or perfect. But again snobish you wanted to demean again with that also.


Again untrue, your on a mythical roll, now if you think this statement is correct you should post a vid doing the same as below, I'll eagerly await you vid. Oh and you can pick any DD you want.

I'm hesitant to smack my PS-X800, but I bet it would work just fine if did it. You can try this test if you like.

It's not really a test of the merits of the drive.

 

[Cosmo-D]

Also I was referring to isolating the motor noise from

That's not what was said. so are they audiophile press or audio snobs? that post was meant to demean and that's why I called it snobbish to me. Not to mention it was trying to bring in a drive system argument as you are now, none of them are best or perfect. But again snobish you wanted to demean again with that also.


Again untrue, your on a mythical roll, now if you think this statement is correct you should post a vid doing the same as below, I'll eagerly await you vid. Oh and you can pick any DD you want.

I was referring to the isolation of the motor the noise from the pickup unit. What you've shown is a test of of the overall dampening of the of plinth and chassis. Drive type has nothing to do with it. I'd wager a DD or and idler constructed in the same fashion would perform the same on that test. A direct drive doesn't need things like a suspended chassis (your platter keeps vibrating well after the impulses have stopped) because it doesn't need to dampen vibrational energy from another source within the plinth sources (because there aren't any for maybe footfalls and the like that dampening is accomplished with isolation feet).

Your video shows a well-constructed turntable, but it doesn't change the fact there are more sources of vibration in a belt driven (or idler driven) than a DD like a Technics. There are simply more pieces that can vibrate and make noise.

 

[62caddy]

Generally I tend to agree - the less moving parts, the better.

At the time of its introduction, direct drive was quite expensive but within several years, DD began to outspec the alternatives costing similar money, on average. Also with DD, platter weight does not need to be as great as with alternative drive systems, which contributes to savings..

Much like tubes and SS today, you can still have very high performance with older technology but to do so usually comes at a significantly higher price..

 

[ODS123]

It is not, when you can buy some amazing TT for less. I saw them at AXPONA. NOT IMPRESSED.

What I mean is that every other TT in the price range of the new SL-1210GR is barely a slight variation on the same theme: a wood plank (veneered or otherwise); an outsourced motor; one of a handful of available tone-arms; a brass oil-filled bearing; and a rubber-band. ..Nothing much to differentiate them from each other.

 

[808_state]

The first set of new SL-1200 GAE units sold out within 30 minutes in Japan. If that's not love then I don't know what is. Plus the motor on that thing is an over-engineered beast!

 

[Audioo]

But who would actually want to do a side by side comparison with a Rega or Sme tonearm modded 1200 against a Linn Vahalla, Sota, Vpi, Goldmund, Clear Audio or Oracle?
Ive read how good a rega sounds on a 1200

 

[Nat]

Cosmo D: There have been suspended subchassis direct drives - Technics made some of them, the SL 1600 and, I think, the 1300, maybe more. Very good sounding tables.
Platter vibration is a matter of the design of the platter, not the drive system used, or whether or not there is a suspended subchasis. All platters have some resonant signature - it's the nature of physical objects -- but those that have a thinner inner section and a thick periphery are functionally bell shaped, and will ring unless damped by the mat or constrained layer or some other means, more or less successfully. Platters that are flat discs have less ringing, but they are an unattractive choice -- a lot of extra mass, which increases material costs and shipping costs, and if the motor has to be under the platter, the plinth will have to be taller, and the box bigger, again increasing shipping costs.
People will argue themselves blue in the face over whether compliant feet and/or mass loading are as effective as a suspended subchassis, but the reason for either is environmental - the sound field the turntable is in. Gross acoustic feedback is not the difficult issue, it's the subtler smearing muddying of the image and of frequencies. Suspended subchassis put the main resonances at higher frequencies and higher Qs than compliant feet and/or mass, and it may be that different ears hear the effects differently, and clearly, some don't hear the issue at all. Mass loading certainly is a materials and shipping cost factor, and different designers may choose to avoid that problem by using a suspended subchassis, which, of course brings it's own set of costs - parts, tuning, isolation from footfalls, and so on.
My point is that anyone making a turntable for sale isn't just trying to make a good sounding table, but is also trying to make the best sounding table for the price. Different designers will choose different paths, but none is inherently perfect, and none inherently perfidious. It was a mistake for some in the audio world to condemn all direct drives (and, while we are at it, idler drives) but it is also a mistake to anoint any system, but especially one example of that system, as the best for all situations.

 

[ODS123]

anyone making a turntable for sale isn't just trying to make a good sounding table, but is also trying to make the best sounding table for the price.

Yes, but economies of scale allow a firm like Matsushita (Panasonic) to spend considerably more money on development than can, say, a company like VPI. Technics cheapest current DD table is $1600, that gaudy (IMHO) direct-drive VPI table you showed is something like $30k. I'd say this pays a Technics a huge compliment.

 

[Cosmo-D]

Generally I tend to agree - the less moving parts, the better.

At the time of its introduction, direct drive was quite expensive but within several years, DD began to outspec the alternatives costing similar money, on average. Also with DD, platter weight does not need to be as great as with alternative drive systems, which contributes to savings..

Much like tubes and SS today, you can still have very high performance with older technology but to do so usually comes at a significantly higher price..

That's a good point. You can get belt drive that equal the measured specs of the 1200 (like the Roksan Xerxes 20 http://www.roksan.co.uk/products/xerxes-20plus-turntable/) however something like that costs almost twice the price of the new 1200G. For that amount of money you are almost getting into new SP-10R territory. Although the new SP-10 doesn't have rumble specs. The SP-10 mk3 was rated at something like -93dB rumble, which is absolutely insane and totally unequalled to me knowledge.

 

[Cosmo-D]

Cosmo D: There have been suspended subchassis direct drives - Technics made some of them, the SL 1600 and, I think, the 1300, maybe more. Very good sounding tables.
Platter vibration is a matter of the design of the platter, not the drive system used, or whether or not there is a suspended subchasis. All platters have some resonant signature - it's the nature of physical objects -- but those that have a thinner inner section and a thick periphery are functionally bell shaped, and will ring unless damped by the mat or constrained layer or some other means, more or less successfully. Platters that are flat discs have less ringing, but they are an unattractive choice -- a lot of extra mass, which increases material costs and shipping costs, and if the motor has to be under the platter, the plinth will have to be taller, and the box bigger, again increasing shipping costs.
People will argue themselves blue in the face over whether compliant feet and/or mass loading are as effective as a suspended subchassis, but the reason for either is environmental - the sound field the turntable is in. Gross acoustic feedback is not the difficult issue, it's the subtler smearing muddying of the image and of frequencies. Suspended subchassis put the main resonances at higher frequencies and higher Qs than compliant feet and/or mass, and it may be that different ears hear the effects differently, and clearly, some don't hear the issue at all. Mass loading certainly is a materials and shipping cost factor, and different designers may choose to avoid that problem by using a suspended subchassis, which, of course brings it's own set of costs - parts, tuning, isolation from footfalls, and so on.
My point is that anyone making a turntable for sale isn't just trying to make a good sounding table, but is also trying to make the best sounding table for the price. Different designers will choose different paths, but none is inherently perfect, and none inherently perfidious. It was a mistake for some in the audio world to condemn all direct drives (and, while we are at it, idler drives) but it is also a mistake to anoint any system, but especially one example of that system, as the best for all situations.

Why would anyone condemn idler drives? I find them charming. They leave a lot to be desired in terms of isolation, but it is a much simpler means of transmitting a lot torque compared to a DD. I don't own a SL-1200, but if I were aware them earlier when I started out in vinyl I would have saved my pennies for one of those. I now have PS-X800, which aside from some reliability issues (much more complex than 1200), is pretty much the perfect turntable (at least for me).

I don't really understand the exact purpose of the suspended chassis. I have Dual 1225 which I used for while, but I never really paid any attention to that aspect of its design. It seems to cause a lot of problems: I frequently hear about people needing to get their LP12 "tuned", but I don't know what it is they are actually accomplishing with that procedure (other than handing some more money over to their Linn dealer). Technics and Sony seem to have opted for a rigid plinth made of bulk moulding compound (with the PS-X800 being made of a Sony proprietary BMC developed specifically to have a low Q value).

The 1200 seems to stand out because it offers proven and measurable performance that tables costing many times more have issues equalling. Even turntables costing $100,000 can't seem match the speed stability of the 1200 (when those companies actually bother to disclose those measurements—which many do not). clearaudio for instance has hard time matching the speed stability of the 1200 (never mind the SP-10) on a turntable costs $125,000 (the Statement).