Would I be downgrading going to a Ortofon 2M Red from an AT440MLa?

bbb777

Active Member
Hi all,

I posted about a week ago regarding an issue with my AT440MLa cartridge. I talked about how I was getting a scratchy distortion noise coming from one speaker every so often. After a few fellow A-K'ers responded it sounds like it may be a case of 'Stylus Wear'. If this is offcially the case I'm going to be in line for a new cartridge. I have really enjoyed my 440MLa for the year and a half that I have owned it, but I'm wondering if I might want to try something else. The 2M Red has always caught my eye and I see it come up a lot around here. How does the 2M Red compare with the 440MLa? Is it considered a downgrade?

My current system includes a 440MLa cartridge connected to a AT-PL120. I use a Marantz 2215B receiver with a Cambridge 640-P Pre Amp.

What do you guys think? Any other cartridges you would recommend?
 
Yes.

I've had both the 440MLa and the Orto Red. And I experienced them as two very different animals. (Both were running through a Cambridge 640p BTW).

First thing to note is that they have two very different compliance ratings and may not work on the same arm. The 2M Red is lower compliance and would handle a heavier arm than the 440MLa wants.

I loved the AT440MLa. It was the cartridge that got me really hooked on LPs. Until I bought that cart, I thought LPs were inherently distorted. But it's not so!

My experience with the 2M Red wouldn't have shown me that. In fact, it left me wondering what all the fuss is about; it sounded veiled and congested by comparison and no matter how much i worked the alignment; it always suffered inner groove distortion.

I'd start by seeing what the best cartridge compliance for your table is and work back from there. If it did well with the rather high compliance 440MLa, and you really liked it, I'd recommend going further up the AT product chain to a 150MLx or, since you have MC capabilities, the even better AT OC9MLII (or MLIII)
 
I would say it is going backwards.

I am currently using a 2M Blue. I used to use a 440mla several years ago and had it as a spare cart sometime after that.

Assuming the characteristics to the Red and Blue are similar, I agree with Brett A. that the Red is a completely different animal compared to the AT.

Since you are accustom to the 440mla, the Red is probably going to sound very dull to you. Personally, I thought the 440mla was way to bright and had an "off" sounding treble. For me, the Blue is a little more richer and treble is no where near as forward as the 440mla. I much prefer the Blue over the 440mla.

Also, as Brett A experienced, almost every review of the Red includes some comment about Red not being a good tracker along with inner grove distortion (which would go hand in hand of course). Now, I have not had any tracking issues or distortion with the Blue. None that I can detect.

If you really want to move to the 2M series, I would strongly recommend starting with the Blue (IMHO). If you go that route, you have to give it a good 20 to 30 hr break in time. What you hear at first is not what you hear over 20 hrs later (trust me, I was shocked how much the cart improved after break in)

If the price point of the 2M Blue is too much, perhaps consider a Denon DL-110 (I own the 110 too). The treble or higher frequency presentation will fall between the Blue and the 440mla. The DL-110 has a very nice open soundstage but probably sound a bit thinner over all compared to the 440. But I really do think the DL-110 is more natural sounding over the 440mla. But again, that can only be taken as my opinion based on what I hear from my equipment. One thing I can say for certain is the DL-110 tracks as good as the 440mla.

For me, I prefer the Blue over the DL-110 and the DL-110 over the 440mla.

I am sure other members will be able to provide experience and suggestions for carts around the Red price point.

Cheers
 
Hi all,

I posted about a week ago regarding an issue with my AT440MLa cartridge. I talked about how I was getting a scratchy distortion noise coming from one speaker every so often. After a few fellow A-K'ers responded it sounds like it may be a case of 'Stylus Wear'.

Doesn't sound convincing. That stylus should last a LOOONG time before showing any kind of distortions. I'm talking about 1000h for example.


If this is offcially the case I'm going to be in line for a new cartridge. I have really enjoyed my 440MLa for the year and a half that I have owned it, but I'm wondering if I might want to try something else. The 2M Red has always caught my eye

The 2M Red is technically inferior. It's not an upgrade.

2M Blue would be more like it, but the stylus on the 440MLa is able to "bypass" previous groove wear/damage. The one on the 2M Blue, not.
 
As much as i don't really like the AT440MLA I do have on loan a 2M Red and I can tell you if you like your 440 you'd be disappointed in the 2M Red.
 
Get a new stylus for the 440mla or move up the AT line. I'm awaiting the 440mla. then in a year will move into a AT MC HO cart
 
Now what about this one? http://www.lpgear.com/product/AT7V.html It has a .0002 x .0007 grain-oriented nude elliptical stylus, which would make it step down from the 440 MLa. It's also a little cheaper, at $130.

The 440MLa receives criticism regarding it's bright, brash highs. I see in reviews that the AT7V is a little warmer sounding than the 440MLa, with slightly subdued highs. I would have to imagine that this would come at the expense of a little detail, and perhaps slightly more apparent IGD, but I've never actually heard one. I bet it's a great cartridge, though. It should probably beat the 2M Red if you like that Audio Technica sound. I wonder if someone here has heard it...
 
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Doesn't sound convincing. That stylus should last a LOOONG time before showing any kind of distortions. I'm talking about 1000h for example.

The 2M Red is technically inferior. It's not an upgrade.

2M Blue would be more like it, but the stylus on the 440MLa is able to "bypass" previous groove wear/damage. The one on the 2M Blue, not.

+1 :thmbsp: - On both counts.

bbb777 - I know there was a lot of tic-tac re. VTF setting, but I can't recall if you went back and validated your alignment.
I'd personally check the 440's rock under a scope and make sure all looks as it should (no obvious chips, wear etc.) then I'd pop it back on and do a thorough alignment job.

A simple check in this case.
Set up to a singular inner Null point, right in the centre of a typical last track.
If this improves what you're hearing then it's certain that general alignment issues are at least contributing.

The AT440mla is one of the best sub $200 inner groove trackers there are.

Re. comparing to the Ortofon Red.
As others have said, if you like the general quite lively presentation of the AT I think you will find the Ortofon a little dull and boring, also it's not as refined or revealing.

My advice is to double check the 440 set up before jumping on another cart.

Good luck,
Dave
 
I talked about how I was getting a scratchy distortion noise coming from one speaker every so often...How does the 2M Red compare with the 440MLa?

I have and like both cartridges. Like Brett a said they are different.

I had the AT 440 on my Technics SL 1210 M5G and was not impressed. Not saying that the sound was scratchy but it was not clear and detailed...put that same cartridge on the Thorens TD 166 MK II and the difference was very noticeable, much better. I know there is considerable difference in the arm/headshell mass of the two tables and think that the AT 440 responds better to the lower mass of the Thorens. So, your 'scratchy distortion noise...every so often' could be attributed to cart/TA compatiblity. There are other possibilities for that problem...if you want to go there?

The 2M Red did well on the Technics, it had a nice full range, clear and detailed sound. I switched the Red for a OM/Digitrac 100 combo(you can search and get the details) that has a stylus that compares to the Ortofon OM 20/30 series and like this best of all.

No one has mentioned the Grado Prestige series...I have and like the Black and Silver. That might be another choice for you to check out, as well as the Shure offerings.

Different components and personal tastes as well as hearing will play into a person's choices. If you are able to try out different cartridges in your system you will find one or two...three or six:D that you like.

Have fun. Preston
 
Hi all,

I posted about a week ago regarding an issue with my AT440MLa cartridge. I talked about how I was getting a scratchy distortion noise coming from one speaker every so often. After a few fellow A-K'ers responded it sounds like it may be a case of 'Stylus Wear'. If this is offcially the case I'm going to be in line for a new cartridge. I have really enjoyed my 440MLa for the year and a half that I have owned it, but I'm wondering if I might want to try something else. The 2M Red has always caught my eye and I see it come up a lot around here. How does the 2M Red compare with the 440MLa? Is it considered a downgrade?

My current system includes a 440MLa cartridge connected to a AT-PL120. I use a Marantz 2215B receiver with a Cambridge 640-P Pre Amp.

What do you guys think? Any other cartridges you would recommend?

I own the Red and suffer no distortion, inner grove or other wise....The Cart is clear and sounds wonderful. Its not muddy or dull or anything in my system. On the other hand, the AT-440MLA aught to sound better than the Red at $140.00 more than the Red...if it doesn't there are serious flaws with the AT-440MLA, or the Red is just that good.
 
+1 :thmbsp: - On both counts.

bbb777 - I know there was a lot of tic-tac re. VTF setting, but I can't recall if you went back and validated your alignment.
I'd personally check the 440's rock under a scope and make sure all looks as it should (no obvious chips, wear etc.) then I'd pop it back on and do a thorough alignment job.

A simple check in this case.
Set up to a singular inner Null point, right in the centre of a typical last track.
If this improves what you're hearing then it's certain that general alignment issues are at least contributing.

The AT440mla is one of the best sub $200 inner groove trackers there are.

Re. comparing to the Ortofon Red.
As others have said, if you like the general quite lively presentation of the AT I think you will find the Ortofon a little dull and boring, also it's not as refined or revealing.

My advice is to double check the 440 set up before jumping on another cart.

Good luck,
Dave

Thats new for an Ortofon to be dull....they typically are lively carts and are said to be to bright!
 
On the other hand, the AT-440MLA aught to sound better than the Red at $140.00 more than the Red...
I'm pretty sure you can get a 440MLa for only $25 more than the Orto Red. I don't think anyone who has the option to wait a month or two has to pay more than $130 for a 440MLa. And occasionally, they come down to the same price as the Orto 2M Red. ($99).

Thats new for an Ortofon to be dull....they typically are lively carts and are said to be to bright!
I suppose these views are determined by personal experience and preference (what else you've heard and what kind of sound you like) and are system specific.
 
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Thats new for an Ortofon to be dull....they typically are lively carts and are said to be to bright!

Hi Slippers,
You need to read this in conjunction with the whole of my post. It was a relative comment against the AT 440mla (the OP's current cart) which into a std. 47k load is one of the brightest I've heard.
In comparison the Red will not be as lively up top.
 
Hi Slippers,
You need to read this in conjunction with the whole of my post. It was a relative comment against the AT 440mla (the OP's current cart) which into a std. 47k load is one of the brightest I've heard.
In comparison the Red will not be as lively up top.
Yes, and, being a fan of the "AT sound" (which gets more flat and smooth the further up the product line you go), the Orto 2M Red will always sound dull and lifeless. But then a lot of cartridges I've tried do by compassion.

I still say for tracking ability, airy soundstage and detail retrieval, the 440MLa is the one to stick with.
 
I've had the blue and the 440 (mla) on a 1200 with standard loading. To me, the 440 was a complete waste of money in that comparison. Out of control treble response. With custom loading and/or a different arm, maybe the opposite could be true :dunno:. I did not know about loading when I had the 440. The blue also might be much better than the red, although it doesn't seem like it should be a huge difference...
 
Yes, and, being a fan of the "AT sound" (which gets more flat and smooth the further up the product line you go), the Orto 2M Red will always sound dull and lifeless. But then a lot of cartridges I've tried do by compassion.

I still say for tracking ability, airy soundstage and detail retrieval, the 440MLa is the one to stick with.

I agree, being an AT fan my opinon is also that ATs are in fact rather flat and smooth, and with an overall quality that is hard to match. Some (most) ATs will benefit from a low capacitance and a little lower resistance than 47k, think more like 35-40k.
gusten

edit: capacitance total 100-150pF.
 
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I run the 440mla at 32k Ohms
Sub $200 it's a tough act to beat & IMHO the base spec Ortofon can't touch it here.

PS I've got nothing against Ortofons, in fact I've got a Fine Line 530 on my 2nd TT, listening to it now.
Very nice :music:
 
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Wow. great responses guys. Thanks for the advise. that 150MLx might be my next big purchase.
 
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