Yamaha CA-2010 possible restoration

[Oldsansui441]

No apologies needed, happy to discuss anything on my thread, it's all interesting stuff .

I compared the datasheets for the KG's and KW's and noted that the KW's had a lower ESR/Tan delta

This is very interesting mbz as l thought ripple rating had a direct correlation to ESR, l guess not in this case as the KG's have a higher ripple rating, the larger surface area should also be of benefit to dissipating heat. I have had a good run with the type 2 KG's and l would def use again but your findings with the KW's are very interesting indeed particularly as they are not designed specifically for this purpose, l have no doubt in your findings on your NAD.

I think Yamaha amps, particularly the higher end ones use many stages of local capacitance to feed transistors, and as a result, in amps like the one in this thread I would think that the local capacitance makes a far bigger difference. On lower end amps the main filter capacitance is much lower + without running in Class A there is a far more variable load on what is potentially insufficient capacitance - which is why a lot of those low-to-midrange amps have audible benefits with main filter cap upgrades. No doubt for the same reason they are more sensitive to their performance too.

This is a valid point zaibatsu, l know what you mean, in all of the different amplifiers l have worked on l notice that with the different designs comes very different power supply layouts, even for a similar rated output. Some have little capacitance on the power supply after the filter caps where others have much more, ie early to mid 70's pioneers.

 

[Oldsansui441]

BTW, l would like to try some kendeil's someday, l can get them locally. Apparently they are a very nice cap with great specs, not cheap though .

https://www.wiltronics.com.au/product/3949/33000uf-63vdc-capacitor-with-clamp/

http://www.radioparts.com.au/produc...mf-63v-lb-computer-can-capacitor#.WTzAuGiGPIU

 

[mbz]

Agree about the importance of local power caps and probable effect on sound signature.
However the power amp outputs are generally driven directly off the main caps.

Meaningful comparisons are difficult, requires double blind tests.

 

[Oldsansui441]

However the power amp outputs are generally driven directly off the main caps

Very true , l was thinking about this after l wrote above. Then we get into the discussion of regulated supplies vs non regulated supply impacting sound.

 

[zaibatsu]

Agree about the importance of local power caps and probable effect on sound signature.
However the power amp outputs are generally driven directly off the main caps.
Meaningful comparisons are difficult, requires double blind tests.

That's a good point.
The "audio" caps in general do have pretty average ripple ratings so it'd make sense that it's not the best choice for PSU use. To be honest I've noticed both of them have poor ripple ratings compared to the European brands which is why I suspect stuff like KEMET/EPCOS etc would be a better choice. Do Mundorf give specs for their PSU caps?

As for the comparison thing, I use two of the same amp side-by-side for comparing parts - and the times I've burnt myself with solder or the iron lately, we could probably assume I'm blind also.

BTW, l would like to try some kendeil's someday, l can get them locally. Apparently they are a very nice cap with great specs, not cheap though .
https://www.wiltronics.com.au/product/3949/33000uf-63vdc-capacitor-with-clamp/

http://www.radioparts.com.au/produc...mf-63v-lb-computer-can-capacitor#.WTzAuGiGPIU

That's gotta hurt if you've got a Yamaha with the 4 big caps... oh wait

I reckon these would work great, but maybe too fat...
http://au.rs-online.com/web/p/aluminium-capacitors/3819914/

 

[Oldsansui441]

I reckon these would work great, but maybe too fat...

They look very nice, high ripple current and long life .

 

[cdfac]

For the two CA-1010's I've refurbed, or at least the second one which turned out fantastic, this is what I used for filter caps and I would recommend them in general:

http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/EPCOS-TDK/B41456B8229M/?qs=yiCaORDwWV49%2bSAo%2brjjKg==

 

[zaibatsu]

For the two CA-1010's I've refurbed, or at least the second one which turned out fantastic, this is what I used for filter caps and I would recommend them in general:

http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/EPCOS-TDK/B41456B8229M/?qs=yiCaORDwWV49%2bSAo%2brjjKg==

I think that's a good option, but I just want to add that for anyone comparing caps for this application, it's worth not taking the mouser/digikey ripple current value for granted and actually checking the conditions it's measured under in the datasheet. I've found that often the retailer picks various values that can't be compared (eg. in this case mouser picked the absolute maximum ripple value IAC,max which makes it look unreasonably good).

I think this might be a better option for new buyers:
http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/KEMET/ALS30A223KE063/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMtZ1n0r9vR22WsHOALhvbhWnRLwLMWVvCk=

Same price, same size (~51x81mm), and has higher ripple current when you compare the typical 100Hz/85*C value IAC,r: 13.9A vs. 11A. Also has lower ESRmax: 12mΩ vs. 16mΩ, and longer life: 20000h vs. 12000h (@85*C).

Please correct me if I'm wrong (or if I've missed something), only sharing because I was looking over all the options on mouser last night.
I think the EPCOS would be more than good enough, but I'm in no rush so figured it's worth finding the best option.

 

[Oldsansui441]

Some good options there guys, all helpful information for future CA-1010/CA-2010 refurbishers.

 

[hc167]

I just check out this discussion. and I recently acquire this Yamaha CA-2010 amplifier (just last night). Haven't hook it up and listen to it yet. I used to own one so I know how it sound. However, the seller who sell it to me claimed that he replace the two larger filter cap with Elna 36000uf 71V that was originally from Marantz Receiver/Amplifier (don't know which one) . The crazy thing is he said it fit inside. I haven't really open it up and look at it yet but once I do it, I will post up pictures here. But for sure it will make Class A mode sound better I guess.

 

[nj pheonix]

It might work fine.
If the caps had to be replaced , they really should have gone new. The Marantz is probably as old as the yammy. 30+-40 +years.
Borrowed time in the elytic world

 

[hc167]

It might work fine.
If the caps had to be replaced , they really should have gone new. The Marantz is probably as old as the yammy. 30+-40 +years.
Borrowed time in the elytic world

That is impossible. Back in 30-40yrs ago, nobody has the technology to produce capacitor that is more than 30000uf 71V and still fit inside the CA2010, it has to be modern production such as this one, https://hifiduino.wordpress.com/2015/01/06/inside-marantz-av-receiver/

I guess when I said Marantz, you were thinking the Marantz back in the 70s, not anything modern.

I know it is still an used one. But the previous owner already worked on it? I don't see any good reason why I would replace it. Specially it is still working and he did gave me the old capacitor.

 

[nj pheonix]

I did have that impression

 

[Oilmaster]

Don't be fooled by the idea that more is better.
Larger capacity caps have inherently lower self-resonance frequencies, making the lower end more blurry and boomy (when only one capacitor per rail can be installed)

This can only partly be compensated by adding specific components at specific locations, and the values of those components are a function of the circuit (PCB tracks, wiring, etc), that makes up a whole new "system". Then still, the sound rather gets worse than better (I can tell form sufficient testing experience).

Even if the power feed to the power amplifier is perfect..... in these vintage amps the output signal from the power amp section goes through a hole bowl of spaghetti before ending up at the speaker terminals at the back, such as (again) wiring & wiring, speaker selector switch, another PCB with protection relay, etc, etc.

It's the entire system that creates the sound and performance of an amplifier, and you rather invest in that than big fat 50mF power supply caps.
I'd rather solder big fat wires from amp PCB output to speaker terminals if a power boost is your goal (not recommended if you love your speakers though)

The CA-2010 has class-A switch for the first few watts only; it is NOT a class A amp;
The heatsinks and ventilation (draft) are not designed to operate at 50W class A at all......

Seriously, the amp sounds perfectly fine with 18.000~22.000uF caps, cleaned speaker selector switch, new relays, etc etc
Installing highly overrated caps also poses a threat to rectifier diodes, fuses, etc.
2x 32.000uF would require a softstart module at the mains side....

 

[avionic]

2x 32.000uF would require a softstart module at the mains side....

Would also be damn hard on the power switch contacts.

 

[avionic]

Seriously, the amp sounds perfectly fine with 18.000~22.000uF caps,

Concur...

 

[Mr. Yamaha]

Would also be damn hard on the power switch contacts.

Triac switch

 

[Mr. Yamaha]

Seriously, I indeed think you don't need those large cans. Also the voltage rating of the Marantz caps in your link is too low for the CA-2010. I received these babies today for my CA-2000:

 

[Oilmaster]

Seriously, I indeed think you don't need those large cans. Also the voltage rating of the Marantz caps in your link is too low for the CA-2010. I received these babies today for my CA-2000:

View attachment 1037657

I have a question there: if you rub those superb KG's over the fur of your cat in the back ground, do the caps charge?

 

[nj pheonix]

I have a question there: if you rub those superb KG's over the fur of your cat in the back ground, do the caps charge?

No
But you can stick them to the wall like balloons