FrostEOne
Active Member
Who cares what you call the walls, this is about sound quality and imaging (sound stage)
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Yamaha NS1000M Discussion
- Thread starter FrostEOne
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FrostEOne
Active Member
You'd be surprised what proper speaker setup can do, almost all my music now sounds "properly recorded" it's only a very few early albums that don't.
FrostEOne
Active Member
Really makes a difference, allows the sound stage to expand not only to left and right, but actually becomes 3D. Still remember achieving this, imaging was so different that it took me a bit to actually understand what had happened.
Wasn't at all familiar with stereo imaging being 3D, was honestly at awe for the first week or so.
My usual day consists of four to six hours of listening, I've been going though my 500+ albums purchased from 65 thru 85 amazed by what I had missed for so many years.
FrostEOne
Active Member
Exactly! Well said.
FrostEOne
Active Member
I've been tweaking room set up as well. A perfect triangle put the chair at midway pint in the room and that wrecked bass. So I ended up moving speakers further out into room...moved the chair back again.
Here is what I had posted in McIntosh Users Community:
"
As one may recall I set up a perfect recommended near field equilateral the other evening. A different presentation for sure. Imaging like no tomorrow. However it put me in a bass null. I suppose because this had placed the chair exactly at the half way point of the room.
So I moved the speakers further out into the room...about another depth of the speaker stands depth worth. Slightly less toe in. And moved the chair back by around its full depth or a bit more even.
Final outcome is tweeters are 53 inches apart..rear right corner of each speaker is 31 inches from the wall. Tweeters to ears measures 66 inches. Mid of headrest to rear wall is 26 inches. This gives me the bass and my stool back...and it still images pretty nicely. Not quite as nice as the perfect equilateral but better than my 1st two set ups I had. Left the sub placement alone.
I think I can live with this a long while now
"View attachment 1227481
Speakers are too close to side walls to obtain a really good sound stage, they need at least as much space to their sides as they have between them. Divide a wall into thirds and start there, equal distances between speakers and speakers to walls. This is good starting point.
FrostEOne
Active Member
You are very welcome! I've had my Yamaha NS1000M for 44 years, most of this time they were on the short wall, they never sounded this good, nor did they image like they do now.
I was happy before, a whole lot happier now.
FrostEOne,
good info.
I'm in the process of planning/ building a second system in a new dwelling, which will be a bit challenging due to it's squarish dimensions. The initial phase will be based on my NS1000s and a single SVS sb2000 which is on it's way for this setup. Would you happen to have picture of your set up.
Thanks. Stan
good info.
I'm in the process of planning/ building a second system in a new dwelling, which will be a bit challenging due to it's squarish dimensions. The initial phase will be based on my NS1000s and a single SVS sb2000 which is on it's way for this setup. Would you happen to have picture of your set up.
Thanks. Stan
FrostEOne
Active Member
Hi Stan, glad you liked the info. Here's the house floor plan with stereo drawn in and a pic of my gear. Did you get their isolation feet with your SVS sb2000?
https://postimg.cc/image/i3u1w7xc5/
https://beta-static.photobucket.com...srmbphp.jpg?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds
https://postimg.cc/image/i3u1w7xc5/
https://beta-static.photobucket.com...srmbphp.jpg?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds
FrostEOne
Active Member
I started on my solid state system with a single sub, added a second soon after that.
With a single sub, I can hear where the sub is located, the pair blend into the sound stage much better.
Then I put the SS system in the basement family room.
With the experience of the SS system, the tube system started with 2 subs.
With them both just inside the mains, they fit into the imaging quite well.
With a single sub, I can hear where the sub is located, the pair blend into the sound stage much better.
Then I put the SS system in the basement family room.
With the experience of the SS system, the tube system started with 2 subs.
With them both just inside the mains, they fit into the imaging quite well.
Thanks a lot Frost,
that covers a lot of my angst. I now feel more at ease with the path I've chosen for this system now.
You have a nice set up a sophisticated "audio" taste.
With the house not closing for another four weeks, it'll be a while til I know. And if it turns out OK. I'll let you know.
Stan
that covers a lot of my angst. I now feel more at ease with the path I've chosen for this system now.
You have a nice set up a sophisticated "audio" taste.
With the house not closing for another four weeks, it'll be a while til I know. And if it turns out OK. I'll let you know.
Stan
FrostEOne
Active Member
Stan, did you happen to notice how low my 1000s sit? They're raked 10 degrees, this is something Bob advised once we had all the other details worked out.
They were on 22" stands, Bob said, "This may sound a bit strange, but if the Yamahas were mine, I'd try to find stands even less than a foot tall, so I could rake them more to get the "spreading out of the sound" that raking produces."
My 1000s are now 8" off the floor at back and 10¼" in front, really like what this has done to the sound stage, it's actually 3D now. Amount of rake depends on how far away from speakers you sit.
In 44 years of owning the 1000s, they've never imaged this well.
Here's a drawing of my current speaker stands, some food for thought.
https://postimg.cc/image/ts2rauor9/
They were on 22" stands, Bob said, "This may sound a bit strange, but if the Yamahas were mine, I'd try to find stands even less than a foot tall, so I could rake them more to get the "spreading out of the sound" that raking produces."
My 1000s are now 8" off the floor at back and 10¼" in front, really like what this has done to the sound stage, it's actually 3D now. Amount of rake depends on how far away from speakers you sit.
In 44 years of owning the 1000s, they've never imaged this well.
Here's a drawing of my current speaker stands, some food for thought.
https://postimg.cc/image/ts2rauor9/
More useful tips on setting up the NS1000s. Thanks for that.
These are notoriously difficult speakers to set up domestically. I fortunately, when setting up the 1000s, acquired a very perfect "to me" set of stands. They're 16" heavy gage , sand filled Target stands. Places the tweeters at ear level. Perfect for my Pioneer DSSe10s and the like as well. I'll definitely play a little with the tilt back as well.
Your stands also look very solid and well built.
These are notoriously difficult speakers to set up domestically. I fortunately, when setting up the 1000s, acquired a very perfect "to me" set of stands. They're 16" heavy gage , sand filled Target stands. Places the tweeters at ear level. Perfect for my Pioneer DSSe10s and the like as well. I'll definitely play a little with the tilt back as well.
Your stands also look very solid and well built.
FrostEOne
Active Member
Stan, with 16" stands you should be able to easily tilt the speakers back enough to raise the voices to a "natural" position. Voices should be 5 foot off the floor as if the person singing is in the room.
I'd like one day to build a pair of lead shot filled steel stands, currently still playing a bit with their proper height, voices are a bit low yet and any more tilt back loses the bass.
Likely 3 to 4 inches higher than what I have would be ideal in my room and listening distance.
Current stands are fairly heavy, 3 layers of ¾" plywood for all pieces, uses a lot of a 62 lb sheet, current stands are roughly 22 lbs each.
Raising the design the 3 or 4 inches needed to better locate the voices would add more weight to them as well.
Need to do some testing and a lot of listening yet to determine new stand height.
Here's the sheet layout for current stands, there's enough room left over on a single sheet to do the increase needed.
https://postimg.cc/image/iva7hswwl/
I'd like one day to build a pair of lead shot filled steel stands, currently still playing a bit with their proper height, voices are a bit low yet and any more tilt back loses the bass.
Likely 3 to 4 inches higher than what I have would be ideal in my room and listening distance.
Current stands are fairly heavy, 3 layers of ¾" plywood for all pieces, uses a lot of a 62 lb sheet, current stands are roughly 22 lbs each.
Raising the design the 3 or 4 inches needed to better locate the voices would add more weight to them as well.
Need to do some testing and a lot of listening yet to determine new stand height.
Here's the sheet layout for current stands, there's enough room left over on a single sheet to do the increase needed.
https://postimg.cc/image/iva7hswwl/
FrostEOne
Active Member
Stan, out of curiosity, I set my speaker stands on their sides under the 1000s.
Stands are 15¼" plus Vibrapods under speakers puts them at 15¾", no rake, speakers are dead level.
Without the rake I was able to move the 1000s and sb2000s 8" back towards the wall behind them.
Noticed 2 things right off, it's a little less airy and the mid-range & bass are possibly a bit stronger/clearer.
Going to leave it this way for at least a month if not longer, I never make immediate judgements, have to listen to a lot of music and think through the differences I hear.
Thought you might be interested.
Mark B
Mark,
when I had mine set up about nine years ago in a 22 by 14 great room, not centered. They were set up on the long wall, on the mentioned stands, 45 watt tube amp and tubed preamp, they sounded great.
It's critical that the balance of the speaker be dialed in with the pots. Even with the tubes driving them the mids and tweets were set to around the low setting.
Most people never get this part right which is why the NS1000s reputation are bright with no bass.
The sound I remember was a wide open sound stage with an ultra fast midrange. No, there was no bass below about 45 hz. But what was there, was a nimble quality to the bass.
Hence the reason for my basing this set up with a fast, quality sub. I know the potential the 1000s have.
Your set up must be really good and unique.
Yes , absolutely keep us posted on your thoughts of the new arrangement.
when I had mine set up about nine years ago in a 22 by 14 great room, not centered. They were set up on the long wall, on the mentioned stands, 45 watt tube amp and tubed preamp, they sounded great.
It's critical that the balance of the speaker be dialed in with the pots. Even with the tubes driving them the mids and tweets were set to around the low setting.
Most people never get this part right which is why the NS1000s reputation are bright with no bass.
The sound I remember was a wide open sound stage with an ultra fast midrange. No, there was no bass below about 45 hz. But what was there, was a nimble quality to the bass.
Hence the reason for my basing this set up with a fast, quality sub. I know the potential the 1000s have.
Your set up must be really good and unique.
Yes , absolutely keep us posted on your thoughts of the new arrangement.
FrostEOne
Active Member
Stan,
Living room here is 19 by 16, speakers centered on long wall, back corner of speaker closest to wall is 33" out. Up until this year, I've always used solid-state gear. Jolida tube gear listed in my sig is new, just recently got it all "broke in" after getting the 5 pieces upgraded to "Level One"
I have 2 pairs of 1000s. First pair were purchased in 1974, serials are just over 15,000, they don't have provisions for grills.
Second pair were purchased after the flood of 2008, serials 33,xxx (likely from 1975), the original pair were stolen from the only house on the block that didn't get flooded. They were soon found, but held for close to 3 years for evidence in a federal case, the idiots stole guns from a neighbors upper floor.
First pair I ran the mid controls around -1.5dB or a bit more, depended on the location.
This second pair are a bit different, the controls are both at 0dB, I feel it's the rake that has an effect of smoothing the mid range and highs?
Should point out this might change now that the rake is gone, have been noticing they are brighter now but want to listen for a bit more before making a change.
Your description of their sound is spot on! Wide sound stage and fast mid range. Wish I'd had good subs with them 44 years ago.
System here is the best I've experienced, visitors want to know if I have "special albums"
I don't go looking at local businesses these days and therefore don't have experience of currently available gear to compare to. Might start checking locals though.
Indeed I will update this as it progresses.
Mark B
Living room here is 19 by 16, speakers centered on long wall, back corner of speaker closest to wall is 33" out. Up until this year, I've always used solid-state gear. Jolida tube gear listed in my sig is new, just recently got it all "broke in" after getting the 5 pieces upgraded to "Level One"
I have 2 pairs of 1000s. First pair were purchased in 1974, serials are just over 15,000, they don't have provisions for grills.
Second pair were purchased after the flood of 2008, serials 33,xxx (likely from 1975), the original pair were stolen from the only house on the block that didn't get flooded. They were soon found, but held for close to 3 years for evidence in a federal case, the idiots stole guns from a neighbors upper floor.
First pair I ran the mid controls around -1.5dB or a bit more, depended on the location.
This second pair are a bit different, the controls are both at 0dB, I feel it's the rake that has an effect of smoothing the mid range and highs?
Should point out this might change now that the rake is gone, have been noticing they are brighter now but want to listen for a bit more before making a change.
Your description of their sound is spot on! Wide sound stage and fast mid range. Wish I'd had good subs with them 44 years ago.
System here is the best I've experienced, visitors want to know if I have "special albums"
I don't go looking at local businesses these days and therefore don't have experience of currently available gear to compare to. Might start checking locals though.
Indeed I will update this as it progresses.
Mark B
The secondary discussion moved to its own thread!
http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/speaker-placement-2.836634/
http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/speaker-placement-2.836634/
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