You can lead a horse to water....

[millerdog]

Okay, I've read all the threads about speaker placement. Holy shit! It freakin works! I could not believe what another six inches of separation between my speakers could do. As a confirmed heretic, I also brought them in four inches closer. Thanks guys! I finally made good on your suggestions!

 

[JoZmo]

Hey Miller, I also am I big believer in speaker placement. I found out like you, a while ago, and it was like I had a new set of speakers!
As a matter of fact, just last night I found out again. I had been noticing that my system had not been sounding that good, just not the soundstage or imaging it used to have. So, I started doing some measuring and one speaker was way off with the other one, but not enough that I could notice visually. My wife has a tendancy to move stuff when she cleans and not move it back in the same place.
Well, that was it, measured things up again, made some adjustrments and bingo.

Some may not have the room to place their speakers correctly, but I say if you have the space then do it, it makes the world of difference.

 

[Toasted Almond]

If all other links in the chain are competently designed, executed, and in good operating order, the placement of the speakers, and their interaction WITH THAT ROOM, is the single biggest influence on the sound of your system. Unless of course, you're listening to REALLY BAD music to begin with (Hello RAP!).

Almond, Toasted/MSgt, USAF

 

[gonefishin]

Speaker placement can really be a pain in the butt...and in some situations...there may be only so much one can actually do to alter the placement of the speakers...due to the room itself...or objects in the room. But even with these constraints...the smallest movement can make a big difference.

What I've found is that most every speaker...system...and room is different. Some speakers may work out better pulled way out from the rear wall than others...side walls are certainly a consideration...and the amount of toe-in varies from speaker to speaker too. The amount of toe-in can add (or subtract) that little something you may have wanted...or that little something you may have wanted to get rid of.

Aiming your speakers straight ahead...or slowly toe-ing them in can make a huge difference on soundstage and imaging also. Again...many speaker designs/rooms will vary...so read everything you can...but try varying positions to see what works for you...in your system...in your room. What I've found that could happen with the soundstage (and more importantly)...the imaging...when the speakers aren't toe-in correctly is that you can lose not only your soundstage...but also your imaging...producing a rather confused sound that seems to be coming from a hazy location...almost seeming to move a bit...not locking itself down to one single point. You can also have the sound get to a point and seem to split to each individual speaker...hearing many of the sound from two points originating from each speaker...this can also be rather confusing (if you used to hearing the same speakers set up a little more optimally). Aim the speakers in too much...and you may end up with a sound that has no soundstage width...but still has good imaging.

There are many ways to skin this cat...and several people have varying ways to accomplish the goal of setting your speakers up properly.

my thought...and what I do. First...many speakers can (and will) behave differently in your room...so there is no one way that can use to place your speakers (ie: use an equilateral triangle and toe in so a line extending from the speaker converges one foot in front of you) This may be a great one to try...but it may not work for your room and speakers. What I try to do is first find the placement near and away from the rear wall and side wall. Starting in one position...making small movements (and measurements) until I have a sound that I'm satisfied with (during this time...I am not as concerned with toe-in...but do make sure that they are both toed-in the same) Once I'm satisfied with the sound (and room interaction) I usually do the same process again...but, when I move the speakers this time...I move them even less than before...moving up, back or over a fraction of an inch at a time. After I'm happy with this...I start playing around with toe-ing the speakers in. Here...I usually start with the speakers facing dead ahead straight forward...little by little I toe both the speakers in...noteing any difference in sound, soundstage and imaging...there usually comes a point when things sound "right"...and you get a nice soundstage with good imaging (let's call this point...the middle ground) But I still keep going...toeing the speakers in little by little...still noting any change. Once I'm convinced of just where the "middle ground" was...I go there again...now, I toe the speakers outa little from "middle"...then tow them in to the "middle"...then I toe them in further. It's almost like focusing a 35mm slr camera...you start off out of focus...with every slight turn you get more focused...at one point getting in focus...the you keep proceeding (to see if you can get it any better) but thing eventually start going out of focus again. Like a camera...you can get in focus...but if you make smaller and smaller incremental changes...you can always get it a little better. In the end...some system may still sound great but don't image of soundstage well...for these...you still want to set your speakers up for the best sound...but you may not find the correct placement that seems to click everything into position.


Oh...I've recently picked up a cool test cd with test tones on it. Sure...there are a bunch of CD's with test tones out there...but this one comes with one set of test tones recorded flat...and one set of test tones recorded with adjustment made for the radio-shack analog SPL meter. This meter does work great...but it isn't linear...some of you may have seen people post charts with the adjustments that must be made to the rat-shack meter at various frequencies...but this test CD has the tones recorded with the adjustments already made...so you just play the (adjusted) tones...and your meter should read a flat '0'.

 

[grumpy]

How do you toe these in ? :

 

[bigmacc]

EASY

Actually Grumpy there is a simple solution to your question.

Take both those speakers and place them three feet two inches apart. Next step ship them approximately 350 miles north two degrees east of you.

I'II take over from there.

 

[gonefishin]

:

 

[JoZmo]

Always thinking Mac... always thinking.:yes:

 

[THOR]

"Speaker placement can really be a pain in the butt...and in some situations...there may be only so much one can actually do to alter the placement of the speakers...due to the room itself...or objects in the room. But even with these constraints...the smallest movement can make a big difference."

I hear you on that! Unfortunately I have a very small living room, a big ass TV, a giant L shaped sectional and 4 very largish speakers, 2 racks of gear and there are also 3 doorways connecting it to the outside and other parts of the house, so everything has to be placed so as not to block a doorway as well as fit everything. Oh and a girlfriend too So I try the best that I can but honestly the speakers are placed according to where they'll fit after everything else was put where it needed to be i.e. TV had to go along the only wall it would fit on that also had power and cable, then the sectional had to be place for optimal viewing of the TV etc.

Even though this was done out of need rather than planning I will say that by moving my CV's from a front facing position about 6" or so from the corner of the wall and about the back about 8" from the wall like so:

 

[THOR]

To moving them to a "toed in"? position in the corners with the rear ports firing right into the corner really, I mean REALLY made a difference in the responsiveness and impact of the bass:

 

[bully]

Getting set up *properly* is one of the things I really hope to do in my new digs. I'm not sure how many systems I will set up, though.
I do want to use as many of the big amplifiers as possible. The big JBL, the Phase Linear & the HPM will be first in systems.
The lower level family room will house the HT, and big as it is, with all the Yamaha speaker systems and two big subwoofers, I may not have 'good' room left for a stereo. I'll squeeze one in, anyway, 'cause the FR will be the farthest removed from the neighbor (the new place is another duplex, but much larger, but no real 'box' storage for the boxes).
Now I've got to look for all the cds, and possibly the cassettes and pack 'em away for the move.

 

[MikE]

The greatest tweak of all - speaker placement - is free. MikE

 

[MikE]

Thor

That's a serious rack Man! Talk about having no "wife appeal factor"! MikE

 

[THOR]

Believe it or not these are the ones she approved of. I needed a rack(s) big enough and with enough strength and space to hold 4 heavy amps amps, an AVR, a pre amp, 3 EQ's and my rear center channel. Also had to be on wheels, nothing more tiring and irritating as pulling a rack out with 200lbs of gear on it and no wheels when changing cables, IC's ect., and be reasonably priced. The high end fancy audiophile racks were all just way to expensive. The only ones that really fit my budget were the industrial type wire racks, they can hold like 200lbs per shelve and either include wheels or wheels can be easily added. The one I wanted was a 4' wide 5 shelf one that had included wheels for about $80 at Sam's Club. But it was chrome and the GF did not want that one at all. So at Home Depot we found 3' wide 4 shelf ones that were black with no wheels for about $50 a piece. One wouldn't be big enough so I had to get two and the wheels were another $20 I think. She is very happy with them, especially compared to the way everything was stored and displayed before. Actually they look pretty good, would be nicer if I could hide all the cabling somehow. But the important thing is they hold everything and allow enough room for it all to breathe and they are easily pulled in and out for changes or tweaks to the system.

 

[LPD]

Heres a problem I have tackled ever since I got into the audio hobby. My room was and is a nightmare for proper stereo imaging. I raised the speakers 8 inches from the floor to get rid of the muddy bass. I have an open alcove to the left speaker and a brick mantle to the right speaker. So I have an image that appears open on the left and sharper on the right. I have treated the mantle with a DIY panel and even covered it in a fine material to keep the wife happy. Next will be a curtain hung over the alcove on a rod that can be pushed into the corner when not in use. This might sharpen the open left side. I noticed I had my JBL's too far apart and had what gonefishin is describing and image from two seperate sources and very beamy. I moved the speakers in toward each other and closer to the back wall and the bass improved ten fold as did the midrange and image became tighter. Because of the mantel on one side too much toe in seams to sharpen the image too much and it becomes incredibly noticable. I toed them in maybe an 1/8 of and inch and have the listening position approx. 1.25 the distance in between. Soundstage is great as is depth, just the image is a little off only on certain frequencies (because of reflections)!!! Keeps me on my toes and busy, although the stereo has been on maybe 2 hours since the birth of my son. heheh a chip off the ol' block, keeps us up at all hours

 

[Toasted Almond]

You might be able to tame some reflections, or late arrivals, by treating the areas on the speakers front baffle, around any dome tweets or mids. The front baffle is high reflective. The green felt material that has adhesive on one side, is great for those areas. Very cheap and effective treatment.

My AR-9's have thick wool/felt on the entire front baffle, save for the apertures for the dome tweet, dome mid, and 8" cone lower mid. It works like a charm. The stuff has to be 1/2" thick, and AR called it "The Acoustic Blanket". It works. Really cuts down on the stuff thats coming off the face of the cabinets at you, and stops smearing the highs and mids. Try it.

Almond, Toasted/MSgt, USAF

 

[LPD]

Great idea!!! Not sure if I want anything permanent, but something that can be attached and removed would work. I have JBL 4333AWX's with a conical horn and slot tweeter. The horn really disperses so maybe a material around the lense might work, as there is a velcro for changing the position of the lense on the cabinet. I will try the felt and see what happens.

 

[merrylander]

Read all the papers on speaker placement, but what do you do when the room is like this? The Polks are on the stands I built to raise them and tilt them back, only now they tilt them forward and down. That corner does boost the bass.

 

[Robh3606]

If I didn't have my basement I would be screwed. There is no way I could get optimum placement in my livingroom without messing it up so it would look like hell. That sure wouldnt fly. Even with a room I can choose any placement I wanted it took me almost a year to stumble into it. Then I did the room around the speakers. As a result the seating is great for 2 and good for another 2. Which really is not good. I would have much rather had a larger listener window but the room is a bitch and I can't get any more out of it unless I reframe and do some serious alterations and that's out of the question.

Rob2

 

[BrianB]

Ah yes, speaker placement...

I cannot tell you how much money I've lost as a dealer by helping folks out with speaker placement. Every month, a number of folks call me up to say that they're unhappy with their current speakers and want to get something else. And, being the nice guy that I am, I typically recommend that they try reconfiguring their current speakers before moving on to a new set of speakers. (Indeed, if the individual lives nearby, I will often drive out and adjust the placement of the speakers myself!)

In many cases, such adjustments result in the complete satisfaction of the customer, and no sale is made. But that's as it should be, in my opinion. After all, a good dealer should help his or her customers try to save money rather than to waste it...