Zilch's AK Design Collaborative - Econowave Speaker

I'm just gonna be the wild-eyed maverick in the wilderness, and see what I can get out of THIS Nippon-America horn (like in the Seeburgs I did). Enough of you guys are already getting good results from the JBL PTs; somebody needs to "broaden the horizons" a bit, IMHO. :D

If anyone wants these horns, I can probably get them for other people for $30 or so each... anyone wants me to check, I'll be glad to. IMHO, they've just got a smooth quality (at least they did with the D210Tis) that is RARE for a horn. Especially with this simple of a crossover (low-Q 12 dB/oct. highpass with RC "treble boost" filter and an adjustable L-pad). They're considerably bigger than the JBL horns (16" wide, 9" tall), but that's good too- these are actually rated down to 500 Hz (which means they're just LOAFING at 1200 Hz, or effectively even HIGHER, electrically, after the excess low-end response is filtered off)...

Regards,
Gordon.

Mighty tempting. I'd like to put the BMSs on a pair, to run more of the midrange through horns, and let the woofer run just the bass (essentially). :scratch2:
 
This seems as good a place as any to re-recommend the Pi Speakers white paper on interaction of crossover with drivers. It goes into greater specifics than most crossover discussions, yet is perfectly understandable even by a new-to-speakers guy like me. It's 74 pages, but with the graphs it is a great read, if you want to get beyond the off-the-shelf /plain textbook solutions.

http://www.pispeakers.com/Speaker_Crossover.doc



A standing ovation for Wayne Parham's Speaker Crossover paper!!!

There are some great details that should not go unnoticed... like when you can skip using a woofer zobel, whether or not a zobel on a HF driver is necessary at all, and other things. Well worth the read.

And he leads you through the step by step development of each crossover type, but this is not just theoretical.. those designs are used in his products. They work in the real world, not just on paper. :thmbsp:
 
Having linked to it several times, now, I just re-read this thread. It's interesting to follow the performance improvements developing along with the filter evolution. The principles in the Parham paper made significant contributions here, and Jack's application of them resulted in an excellent, economical final design.... :thmbsp:
 
Is it all done. What is the finalize version and what is the frequency response is (i just want to understand what am i doing._ My woofer will be vintage Altec 515 which is about 98db. Thanks.
 
I just got caught up on this thread and my friend Coy and I have been talking about doing almost the exact same thing. We were thinking of using the $10 PT waveguides with the least expensive HF/LF drivers that sound good with maybe an off the shelf xover from parts express (that could be modified if necessary). The idea is to try and get 80-90% of what I have in my ZD JBL's at maybe 1/4 the cost. Looks like you have already done most of the work for us. :thmbsp: The key would be to find some nice cabinets that can be modified. I'm thinking maybe these Sansui SP-2500 cabinets might work. They are beautifully finished but don't sound very good. Coy and I are in the early stages of taking about doing this but after reading this thread we may have to move faster. Here's a picture (the top one) of a set that are local to me for $60.

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Looks like you're nearly done, Duff! :thmbsp:

Is it all done. What is the finalize version and what is the frequency response is (i just want to understand what am i doing._ My woofer will be vintage Altec 515 which is about 98db. Thanks.
Try this first:

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I may need to stand corrected!

When this thread was begun, I was convinced that that the D220Ti was obviously superior to the D210Ti driver. Its factory measured impedance curve was better, and the measured Frequency Response curve was also flatter. The D210Ti's recommended minimum crossover frequency was 2,000 Hz, versus the D220Ti's 1500 Hz. The D220Ti has a phase plug, while the D210Ti doesn't. Simply had to be the better driver. But....

I had both drivers on hand, plus had ordered a pair of Selenium HC23-25 horns to see if Selenium was up to speed on making horns for their drivers. The Selenium horns were a buck or so cheaper then the JBL, and they had some metal horns which might have been better candidates, but cost several times what the JBL waveguides did.

This morning, I tried the Selenium horns on the D220Ti's installed in the EconoWave pair in my shop. Their HF response dropped off at around 10 KHz, and was down by about 8-10 Db at 20 KHz. Not really good, unless you like the Altec Theatre sound. Next, as long as we were removing drivers from horns, etc, why not try the D210Ti's and see how they do. Wow, I was amazed! :headscrat

It appears that the D210Ti is simply a drop in replacement for the D220Ti. No changes to the crossover circuit are necessary. So unless The Zilchster or someone else with more/better instrumentation than mine can come up a reason not to use the D210Ti's I see no reason not to. The choice is yours. Phase Plug or Not! And remember the D210Ti is about $11 each cheaper than the D220Ti. Nice savings.

Since the crossover frequency for the HF was chosen to be 3 KHz, either Selenium driver is well above it's factory recommended crossover point. Scratch one obstacle. Secondly, the impedance curve of the D210Ti is worse than the D220Ti, but it's biggest and highest peak is at 2 KHz, again well below the crossover frequency chosen. There goes another obstacle. The FR of the D210 actually seems to measure better than the D220Ti at the same settings of the crossover. Scratch another one. But does the Phase Plug make a difference? With a D210 on the left channel, and a D220 on the right, I listened to an entire LP which is one of my favorites, Something You Got by Art Farmer and Yusef Lateef. I cannot hear a difference.

The FR's shown are for the D220Ti on top, D210Ti on bottom, mounted on the JBL waveguides left, and the Selenium horn, right. The last pic is the D210Ti installed on the JBL waveguide under test.

Zilch, do you have a pair of D210Ti's to compare?
 

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If you compare purely by FR graphs, the cheaper D210TI actually looks a bit better (flatter). But we all know that FR is only a part of the equation, it's good to hear that they not only measure similarly, but also sound similar. Makes it possible to get this done for ~100.00.

Good info!
 
Zilch, do you have a pair of D210Ti's to compare?
No longer, alas.

We did the comparison on 811B, and found the D220Ti to be smoother, and to require less compensation:

http://audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?p=1670196&#post1670196

The D220Ti sounded more transparent on that horn.

D210Ti is certainly an option.

******

I've tested a LOT of horns and waveguides here. JBL's $9.90 PT outclasses anything in its price range above 1 kHz, and many costing substantially more....
 
The EconoWave was previously tested with a Stephens Trusonic 150FR mounted in a homemade clone (1.5 times size) of an ElectroVoice Baronet. Since things could sound different mounted in a cabinet, I built a new front baffle today for the Baronet and mounted a 120FR (12") and the EconoWave HF system inside the cabinet. Pix show the FR, the cabinet undergoing test, and the Baronet with it's grille on being compared to the Altec Santana/JBL version used in development.

The Baronet clone was built several years ago before I had instrumentation, and is not tuned correctly. Being just built by "ear", they sound great but measure poorly. I will investigate the tuning, but it sounds very nice as is. The Trusonic is more efficient than the LE14A, so is slightly louder, which tends to fool me into thinking it is "better." To really compare them, volume levels must be set so the sound level is identical. Only enough material was on hand to build one baffle, but another will be built, and they will be used in the identical pair in my library. Then an A/B can be done against the pair of Santana's with BMS drivers on JBL waveguides in my office system. Fact is, that pair is my present avatar. Bet they will compare very favorably.

And last but not least, a picture of the mesquite end tables I am building. They have nothing to do with speakers, but I am proud of them. The tops are adjacent slices of a tree trunk which was hit by lightning when young. They will make a great place to rest our beer at the next Comparo.
 

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If there are major differences in the frequency response mounted on the baffle in the cabinet, they are not apparent.

It looks like LE14H-3 will fit nicely in the upsized Baronet, as well, with room for ports at the bottom. I'm particularly liking the sloped baffle.... :thmbsp:
 
If there are major differences in the frequency response mounted on the baffle in the cabinet, they are not apparent.

It looks like LE14H-3 will fit nicely in the upsized Baronet, as well, with room for ports at the bottom. I'm particularly liking the sloped baffle.... :thmbsp:

The LE14's will fit in there quite nicely, but I only have so many of them, and also have these Trusonics, which are very nice drivers. The last pair of LE14A's in the Santana cabinets will probably become the woofers for my next project, which will be the JBL Mid/HF waveguide three way thing-a-ma-bobby.

The sloping panels are the cats meow. The EV Aristocrat was about the same size as these clones, but EV built them with such cheap thin material, plus their face was straight up and down. Had four of them, but gave them to a guy in Texas a few years ago, and built these. One pair of them will become "keepers", and the other pair (the ones pictured) are yours. We just need to get them to Berkeley. What kind of woofer are you planning to use in them? Do you want me to cut baffles for them, including woofers?

Anybody going from Phoenix or Flagstaff to Berkeley? :yes:

Edit: Wow, thats a horrible paint job on that baffle, isn't it. Gotta be more patient.
 
Neat

Then an A/B can be done against the pair of Santana's with BMS drivers on JBL waveguides in my office system. Fact is, that pair is my present avatar. Bet they will compare very favorably.

And last but not least, a picture of the mesquite end tables I am building. They have nothing to do with speakers, but I am proud of them. The tops are adjacent slices of a tree trunk which was hit by lightning when young. They will make a great place to rest our beer at the next Comparo.

Jack, I'm very interested in this comparo, especially between the 210/220 and BMS. Please report what you think!

BTW, nice slab-o-tables.

Wish I could take a road trip, I'd steal a pickup, swing by for the beer and drop the slope baffled experimentals at Dr. Zilch's.
 
One pair of them will become "keepers", and the other pair (the ones pictured) are yours. We just need to get them to Berkeley. What kind of woofer are you planning to use in them? Do you want me to cut baffles for them, including woofers?
WHOA! That's wonderfully generous of you, Jack, and I would love to have them. :yes:

LE14H-3's the woofer, up high like you have the Trusonic, the waveguide right where you've got it, and I'll cut in the ports.

Perhaps the AK Pony Express can get them here to me.... :scratch2:
 
When this thread was begun, I was convinced that that the D220Ti was obviously superior to the D210Ti driver. Its factory measured impedance curve was better, and the measured Frequency Response curve was also flatter. The D210Ti's recommended minimum crossover frequency was 2,000 Hz, versus the D220Ti's 1500 Hz. The D220Ti has a phase plug, while the D210Ti doesn't. Simply had to be the better driver. But....

I had both drivers on hand, plus had ordered a pair of Selenium HC23-25 horns to see if Selenium was up to speed on making horns for their drivers. The Selenium horns were a buck or so cheaper then the JBL, and they had some metal horns which might have been better candidates, but cost several times what the JBL waveguides did.

This morning, I tried the Selenium horns on the D220Ti's installed in the EconoWave pair in my shop. Their HF response dropped off at around 10 KHz, and was down by about 8-10 Db at 20 KHz. Not really good, unless you like the Altec Theatre sound. Next, as long as we were removing drivers from horns, etc, why not try the D210Ti's and see how they do. Wow, I was amazed! :headscrat

It appears that the D210Ti is simply a drop in replacement for the D220Ti. No changes to the crossover circuit are necessary. So unless The Zilchster or someone else with more/better instrumentation than mine can come up a reason not to use the D210Ti's I see no reason not to. The choice is yours. Phase Plug or Not! And remember the D210Ti is about $11 each cheaper than the D220Ti. Nice savings.

Since the crossover frequency for the HF was chosen to be 3 KHz, either Selenium driver is well above it's factory recommended crossover point. Scratch one obstacle. Secondly, the impedance curve of the D210Ti is worse than the D220Ti, but it's biggest and highest peak is at 2 KHz, again well below the crossover frequency chosen. There goes another obstacle. The FR of the D210 actually seems to measure better than the D220Ti at the same settings of the crossover. Scratch another one. But does the Phase Plug make a difference? With a D210 on the left channel, and a D220 on the right, I listened to an entire LP which is one of my favorites, Something You Got by Art Farmer and Yusef Lateef. I cannot hear a difference.

The FR's shown are for the D220Ti on top, D210Ti on bottom, mounted on the JBL waveguides left, and the Selenium horn, right. The last pic is the D210Ti installed on the JBL waveguide under test.

Zilch, do you have a pair of D210Ti's to compare?

Jack,
That's some awesome comparisons you documented, I have two pairs of the D210's, bolt-on, and one pair threaded, for the price, why not?? Of course I like the BMS 4552ND's the best but they should sound the best at 5 times the price!! Hmmmm, I thought all compression drivers had a phase plug, great work, Dave.
 
If there are major differences in the frequency response mounted on the baffle in the cabinet, they are not apparent.

It looks like LE14H-3 will fit nicely in the upsized Baronet, as well, with room for ports at the bottom. I'm particularly liking the sloped baffle.... :thmbsp:

Whoops, I somehow was under the impression that these JBL drivers were being used in sealed boxes, I'm a little confused! Which is it? Now that you guys have come up with an excellent way affordable top end, how about a couple of choices with current drivers for a bottom end. As a non RTA owning member, it would be helpful to see afew combinations with easily obtainable, reconeable, low frequency drivers.

Are recones available for the LE14H-3? Or only option is re-foam?

Thanks for all this great info, I for one really appreciate it, and will be glad to get a DEQ 2496 and add to it, buying a new house right now, and with my existing projects, ita puchase is still a little ways off.

On another note, I find most sites have the CX 3400 cross over as a "B stock" item for 99.00 Is this worthwhile, or should I quite bitching and pony up the other 39.99 for a new in the box one?

Thanks again, Especially Zilch and Jack for all your efforts in allowing those of us less equipped to "play along" great fun....everyone should buy this top end horn and at least try that. I was amazed to find that with a little fiddling, that cheap ass waveguide CAN replace a 511B on an A7! Suprised the hell out of me to say the least!

Russellc
 
Jack,
Hmmmm, I thought all compression drivers had a phase plug, great work, Dave.

Dave, all compression drivers need something for the diaphragm to work against to make compression. Whether the manufacturer prefers to call it a "phase plug" or not depends on them. I would bet that the D210Ti has roughly the same part as the D220Ti. But Selenium in the D220Ti data sheet makes much hype about their "Injected phase plug in engineering plastic, optimized to eliminate undesirable phase cancellations", while on the D210Ti sheet, no mention is made about phase plugs. Kind of convinces me that there is a major difference. Maybe it is only Marketing 101.

I used the LE14A woofers in Santana cabinets along with the JBL Mid/High frequency waveguide to try the cheapo three way system. The Mid range driver I used was the 104H-2, one of JBL's flattest drivers, and used in the 4412, one of their best monitors. My original thoughts were that the lower (850 Hz) cross to the 104H-2 mids would yield a smoother response. Wrong! The Econowave sounded every bit as smooth. And raising the HF crossover to 3,500 for the D210Ti didn't improve it's performance either.

The Econowave 2 way outperformed the three way due to it's smaller sound source. The larger difference in the placements of the LF, Mid, and HF made the sound stage of the three way seem very large. It would be ideal in an auditorium, but in my garage, it sucked. I know that I am not using the waveguide according to it's design goals, but replacing the 104H-2 with the CMCD (Cone Midrange Compression Driver) device it was designed for would still yield an overly large sound stage. JBL knows a lot more about making sound for large areas than me, and while making roughly more than 105 Db per watt/meter is great for large areas, to match it to a common woofer at household levels, so much must be thrown away, that the waveguide seems wasted trying to use it in a home system.

I had planned to use the three way as my newest garage system, but will just put the Econowave HF into the Santana's, and keep the "Mid/ High" waveguides for playing with if I ever encounter a "large area" application. I am surprised that not many people have tried to build an Econowave system. The sound is so great and so economical. Maybe everybody is waiting for their "Thrift Store Score."

Those nondescript boxes between the speakers are the stands for my computer speakers before being veneered. I built those while making the cabinets to hold the Mid/High waveguides, Sort of double jeopardy
 

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I am surprised that not many people have tried to build an Econowave system. The sound is so great and so economical. Maybe everybody is waiting for their "Thrift Store Score."
Member Wiredbecker scored these free bass cabs, we built EconoWave systems out of them, and they're kickin' sonic butt here today with JBL big boys standing guard.... :thmbsp:

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Member ValvTubeHead used BMS, but his setup illustrates the concept very nicely, also combining his beautiful Muska bookshelves with supplemental subs:

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I am through testing.

I tried both the EV Baronet clones with Trusonic woofers, and the Santana cabinets with JBL woofers versus the other pair of Santana/JBL/BMS speakers that comprise my present avatar. As predicted, the EconoWave held it's own very well.

With the EconoWave mounted in the Baronets, the 120FR woofer seemed a bit stronger than the JBL due to it's higher efficiency. It was not feasible to set the sound level of both to the same point, due to the reduction of the HF output of the EconoWave to just match the Trusonics. It would have required a boost in treble and lowered volume on the Baronets, and boosting the treble was not possible. I didn't want to open the cabinets and screw with the crossover again, so just took the louder bass into consideration while listening. One of the Baronets had the D210Ti, while the other had the D220Ti. Both of the Selenium drivers were virtually identical, and neither had an advantage as far as smoothness or clarity. They were impossible for me to tell apart. Compared to the BMS mylar diaphragms, the Selenium titanium sounded just a bit different (brighter perhaps). Perhaps some would call the BMS drivers smoother. Mylar sounds different than metal, and even the metal diaphragms sound different. If you like the sound of mylar, as I do, you might prefer the BMS drivers. Or if you like the sound of Titanium, as I also do (JBL makes some extremely nice Ti HF drivers, and I love them) you may prefer the Seleniums. To me, both sets sounded very smooth in the crossover range, and crystal clear in the upper octaves. If mylar sound is what you like, the BMS drivers may be worth paying five times the price. If not, the Seleniums win hands down.

The EconoWaves were then put into the Santana cabinets used for testing, with the baffles being reworked to move the ports and adding the waveguides to the baffle. Both D220Ti's were installed at this time, for more detailed comparison to the BMS. Since the newest Santana's will become my garage speakers, and will be used with the waveguide mounted at the bottom, they were inverted on milk crates to get the waveguides at roughly the same level. With identical cabinets (except for port location) it was much easier to set the volume levels to match. Now the BMS drivers may really sound just a bit more satisfying to me than the Seleniums, but maybe that is because they cost a lot more, or that they are in newly veneered cabinets, while the Seleniums are in gouged up old cabinets, plus they are standing upside down on milk crates. The difference is almost insignificant, but it is there for my ears to here. The BMS drivers just sounded a bit more transparent, or smoother, but the difference is minuscule. If you are building an Econowave, and money is no object, the BMS might be worth a try. On the other hand, if approximately $300 is worth saving, then go with the D220Ti's. Either way, you will end up with a system you will be extremely proud of, having built it yourself. And since econo was important enough to become a part of the name of this thread, the Seleniums will be declared the winners. I have three pairs of speakers equipped with BMS HF drivers, and if I had it to do over again, I would opt to go with Seleniums. They are that good.

I took some pix of the finished pair of EconoWave Santana's mounted on top of the cabinets in my garage. Since some rework was required, the finish got all dirtied, and the only color I had enough of to repaint them was gray primer, that is what the were coated with.

And, Zilch, here is couple pix of your Baronets, with baffles for an EconoWave and LE14 woofers. Now, we just need to get them to you. I know they will sound great. I have already heard them. Well sort of.
 

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