Zilch's AK Design Collaborative - Econowave Speaker

Discussion in 'Speakers' started by Zilch, Feb 23, 2008.

  1. Rational35

    Rational35 AK Subscriber Subscriber

    Messages:
    77
    Location:
    Shelburne, Ontario
    That's a nice inductor, but really, it's overkill for the L1 position in the tweeter crossover.
    It doesn't need that large gauge of wire. It doesn't carry much current.

    Jack Gifford spec'd a 0.53 ohm DCR inductor in that position, and the 14AWG coil is 0.19 ohm. That would be nice in a woofer circuit, but you don't need it here.

    Save some of your hard-earned money for other things, and use one of these:

    Dayton Audio 0.60mH 18 AWG Perfect Layer Inductor Crossover Coil, Part #257-818
    It's still overkill at 0.38 Ohm, but would work more than fine.

    Dayton Audio 0.60mH 20 AWG Air Core Inductor Crossover Coil, Part # 257-040
    This one is 0.56 Ohm DCR. Within normal tolerances, I suspect this is what Jack used, and will work fine.

    Now, for the woofer coil:
    That one's a bit light-duty for the application, the DCR is a bit high at 0.26 Ohms.

    The one that Jack originally used is this:
    ERSE Super Q 2.0mH 16 AWG 500W Inductor Crossover Coil, Part # 266-904

    If the physical size/shape isn't a problem for you, this one will give better performance (lower losses) in the woofer circuit, for a dollar less:
    Jantzen 5811 2.0mH 13 AWG P-Core Inductor, Part # 255-157

    Hope this helps
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2019
    wiredbecker likes this.

     

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  2. wiredbecker

    wiredbecker ... Subscriber

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    Location:
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    Super helpful, thank you!
     
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  3. wiredbecker

    wiredbecker ... Subscriber

    Messages:
    1,850
    Location:
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    L1 is good to go. Jack designed L2's mounting hardware for Erse's standard iron core inductor using 4 mounting bolts. Erse's Super Q mounting hardware consists of 2 bolts and physically occupies the same PCB real estate so that might be a more stable fit with minimal alteration to the existing Econowave PCB. Basically drill two holes and you're good to go.

    Here's the updated LE14A Econowave BOM including Rational35's inductor suggestions:

    [​IMG]

    C1: Dayton Audio DMPC-4.7 4.7uF 250V Polypropylene Capacitor
    Part # 027-422

    C2: Dayton Audio DMPC-15 15uF 250V Polypropylene Capacitor
    Part # 027-432

    C3: Dayton Audio DMPC-1.5 1.5uF 250V Polypropylene Capacitor
    Part # 027-412

    L1: Dayton Audio 0.60mH 20 AWG Air Core Inductor Crossover Coil
    Part # 257-040

    L2: ERSE Super Q 2.0mH 16 AWG 500W Inductor Crossover Coil
    Part # 266-904 (or if you aren't using Zilch's PCBs: Jantzen 5811 2.0mH 13 AWG P-Core Inductor, Part # 255-157)

    R1: Dayton Audio DNR-16 16 Ohm 10W Precision Audio Grade Resistor
    Part # 004-16

    R2: Dayton Audio DNR-25 25 Ohm 10W Precision Audio Grade Resistor
    Part # 004-25

    LPad: L-Pad 50W Mono 1" Shaft 8 Ohm
    Part # 260-255

    Binding posts: Dayton Audio BPA-38SN HD Binding Post Pair Satin Nickel
    Part # 091-1247

    Waveguide: Dayton Audio H6512 6-1/2" x 12" Waveguide 1-3/8"- 18 TPI -
    Part # 270-318

    Compression driver:
    Selenium D220Ti 1" Titanium Horn Driver 8 Ohm 1-3/8"-18 Part # 264-270
     
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2019
    Rational35 likes this.
  4. wiredbecker

    wiredbecker ... Subscriber

    Messages:
    1,850
    Location:
    Albany Landfill, CA
    Actually, you could drill two holes and zip tie across the top of the Jantzen inductor rather than running the Erse in L2. The choice is up to you.
     
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  5. Rational35

    Rational35 AK Subscriber Subscriber

    Messages:
    77
    Location:
    Shelburne, Ontario
    Nice tidy-up of the list, @wiredbecker :)

    I tend to leave a messy trail of breadcrumbs.

    I think Jack went to the Super-Q coil after the original pcb layout was done, when he did the LE14A version... but the Jantzen is a better solution if you can make it fit.

    <edit> Chris, do you have any of those boards left? or the artwork files? I'm thinking about doing an updated version, with some inductor mounting options, maybe plated-thru holes etc. as a subscriber-bonus to help AK. I did that with some STK-0050 module boards for the guys repairing vintage receivers over in the Pioneer forum. I think I owe Zilch one.
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2019
  6. capcapsaicin

    capcapsaicin AK Subscriber Subscriber

    Messages:
    19
    Location:
    Grand Junction, Colorado
    @SteveSmiley

    I've been searching this forum for a cabinet plan but have not seen any. Would you share your plans? I would like to build this speaker too. Jason

     

     

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  7. Steve Smiley

    Steve Smiley AK Subscriber Subscriber

    Cabinet Plans-

    Hello Jason, My cabinet update will disappoint you. I didn't have plans other than what I was sketching on a legal pad. I started with the General dimensions of the Parts Express trapezoid cabinet and eliminated the trapezoid, so now it is a rectangular box. And then, after suggestions of making the box as big as I could, stretched the depth as much as I could with the lumber I had on hand. I never started the cabinets as it is too damn cold in my garage (doubling as my fair-weather shop). I've had some success with smaller cabinets lately and thought I would attempt building the bigger ones from scratch. But honestly, I'm no real craftsman, I just act as if...and make it up as I go along. I was going to cut sides, top, and bottom the same width then, with my router, dadoe joints to insert the back panel and flush mount the front baffle. I'm sure I would eventually be successful, but with fudging along the way. I have faith that I will make cabinets someday, but for now, I've gone a different route:

    I found two sets of speakers on CL that I'm working with. First find was a pair of huge RCA Victor Cabinets that went with one of their original stereo consoles from 1958:
    IMG_6727.JPG

    Then, after reading a post somewhere in here that we couldn't really go bigger than 4 cubic ft for the DC300 woofer, I decided these were way too big (they are more like 6.5 cubic ft.). So, the next find was a pair of Optimus Mach Three. the Mach Three (all the Machs) are fitted with a 15" woofer that is often recognized as too big for their cabinets. I got to thinking...what if I pulled the drivers from the Machs and planned to repurpose the innards for the RCA Victor cabs? Then I could use the empty cabs from the Machs for my Ewave project. I will just cut out the existing front baffle from the Machs and make a new one with cut outs for the Econowave drivers. OK, it doesn't eliminate garage shop time in the cold but it will be a whole lot less time! So that is what I'm doing!

    IMG_6738.JPG IMG_6742.JPG
    Truth be told, the Mach cabinet seems really small now as well. EarlK and Djangle encouraged me to get them as big as I could for flexibility, but I think this size should tune out nicely. They are about 2.8 Cubic ft. each. I will try my hand with WinISD to tune the boxes but I bet I will be reaching out here for help to confirm my findings.

    So, Jason, that was a long answer to say I don't really have "plans," just pencil sketches on a legal pad. I did load Sketch-up on my computer but I don't know how to use it yet. Again, unhelpful.

    One thing I did use as a reference though, that may help - I used a pdf from Parts Express' knock-down cabinets (Denovo, almost anyone will do) and just changed the dimensions. It is often included in the Manuals & Resources part of the product page. Come to think of it, I think I saw a Sketch-up file on one of them that I might be able to download and do something with for you. Check out item #300-7064, for example, to see what I mean.

    So sorry I couldn't be more helpful. I'll let you know if I make some progress with Sketch-up. But don't give up, we can do this with all the help on this forum! It's incredible!

    Steve
     
  8. capcapsaicin

    capcapsaicin AK Subscriber Subscriber

    Messages:
    19
    Location:
    Grand Junction, Colorado
    Those Victor cabinets are awesome! Thanks for the tip about the Parts Express Sketchup file. I downloaded it and will scale it up to my needs. I have a pair of Advent Large speakers that I had originally intended to modify but I can't bring myself to adulterate them so I'm going to try to make custom cabinets for my Econowaves.
     
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  9. Steve Smiley

    Steve Smiley AK Subscriber Subscriber

    Jason,
    I think you are making a good decision. It will be a very satisfying finished product for you,

    I'm totally comfortable cutting up the Mach Three cabinets after reading about RSSteve and Copa's Rhino Mach 4 project (search for the thread if interested). A better speaker awaits the Mach parts! And yes, I love the Victor cabinets. I'm looking forward to starting that project. I put the Victors in the garage with a blanket over them in hopes that I forget about them until I finish a few other projects. I am the king of starting projects before finishing others. It's mayhem in my basement!

    I can fit both Mach cabinets in one of the Victors They are healthy-sized for sure!

    On the Sketchup file, I thought I would add a dadoe to the top and bottom and increase the height of the back panel so it will nestle in nicely. I noted that is how the cabs on the Overnight Sensations are cut and it makes for a nice-to-assemble cabinet. Are you a Sketchup user? I bet there are more people than just you and I looking for a good plan for Ewave cabs. Good luck with your project! We look forward to seeing them (I think it is OK to speak for us AKers).

    Cheers, Steve
     
  10. capcapsaicin

    capcapsaicin AK Subscriber Subscriber

    Messages:
    19
    Location:
    Grand Junction, Colorado
    I am. I've been using it for years. Designed a whole house with it. I was an AutoCAD user before but sketchup is so much more user friendly. Perhaps there is a need for a AK Sketchup Plan forum.

     
  11. wiredbecker

    wiredbecker ... Subscriber

    Messages:
    1,850
    Location:
    Albany Landfill, CA
    While I'm at it here's the current parts list from the last time I built up a pair of Econowave speakers in Advent Utility cabs.


    [​IMG]


    <95db/w Econowave Standard Parts List

    C1: Dayton Audio DMPC-4.7 4.7uF 250V Polypropylene Capacitor
    Part # 027-422

    C2: Dayton Audio DMPC-12 12uF 250V Polypropylene Capacitor
    Part # 027-430

    C3: Dayton Audio DMPC-0.47 0.47uF 250V Polypropylene Capacitor
    Part # 027-406

    L1: Dayton Audio 0.60mH 20 AWG Air Core Inductor Crossover Coil
    Part # 257-040

    or the slightly more expensive

    Jantzen Audio 0.60mH 20 AWG Air Core Inductor
    Part # 255-040

    L2: ERSE 1.5mH 18 AWG I Core Inductor
    Part # 266-552 (More expensive, mounts to PCB using mounting hardware)

    or

    Dayton Audio 1.5mH 18 AWG I Core Inductor Crossover Coil
    Part # 257-552 (Less expensive, mounts using zip ties)

    R1: Dayton Audio DNR-30 30 Ohm 10W Precision Audio Grade Resistor
    Part # 004-30

    R2: Dayton Audio DNR-16 16 Ohm 10W Precision Audio Grade Resistor
    Part # 004-16

    L-Pad: L-Pad 50W Mono 1" Shaft 8 Ohm
    Part # 260-255

    Binding posts:
    Dayton Audio BPA-38SN HD Binding Post Pair Satin Nickel
    Part # 091-1247

    Waveguide: Dayton Audio H6512 6-1/2" x 12" Waveguide 1-3/8"- 18 TPI
    Part # 270-318

    Compression driver:
    Selenium D220Ti 1" Titanium Horn Driver 8 Ohm 1-3/8"-18
    Part # 264-270
     

     

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  12. Steve Smiley

    Steve Smiley AK Subscriber Subscriber

    Hello EarlK,

    I'm now using a donor cabinets from an Optimus Mach Three (see above) for my Econowave standard with the DC300. The cabinet measures 30 x 17.75 x 12 inches O.D. That gives me a volume of 2.8 cubic ft. I plugged it in WinISD at a tuning of 30 Hz, and I get two, 2 inch ports at 5.23" length. This has a 3db down of about 32 Hz. If you have a moment to run the numbers, do you get the same thing? Do you like what the numbers say? Thank you very much, as I'm trying to learn how to use this tool.

    Regards

    Steve
     
  13. EarlK

    EarlK Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    590
    Location:
    Richmond Hill, Ont.
    Sure, 2.8cu' tuned to 30hz looks good.

    I get the same thing and the curve ( the 3db down point looks the same ).

    :)
     
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2019
    wiredbecker and turnitdown like this.
  14. Steve Smiley

    Steve Smiley AK Subscriber Subscriber

    Thanks so much for the vote of confidence. I feel I'm stumbling a bit through the software, but I'm getting there! Time to break out the saw and router!
     
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  15. wiredbecker

    wiredbecker ... Subscriber

    Messages:
    1,850
    Location:
    Albany Landfill, CA
    Steve--those are definitely the proper components for your DC300-based build as opposed to Jack's early iteration of the <95db/w Econowave Standard Parts List that I linked above. You're good to go! Big thanks to Earl and Gordon.
    :beerchug:
     
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  16. Steve Smiley

    Steve Smiley AK Subscriber Subscriber

    Thank you for that confirmation as well Chris! And thank you for the boards. I reviewed the parts list to confirm I had it all. I realized I only ordered two ports instead of four so I corrected that and ordered a handful of other supplies from PE this morning. Hopefully, all will arrive simultaneously and I can get crackin'. I made some progress on the cabinets today and hope to be test-fitting Saturday evening!

    :beerchug:
     

     

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  17. Katalyst

    Katalyst AK Subscriber Subscriber

    Messages:
    822
    Location:
    Indianapolis, Indiana
    The problem is solved. The ports were to small for the woofers to perform properly. More of the B-52 buyout parts from P.E. did the trick. Two ports per cabinet and now there is bass. Another lesson learned from this build.
     

    Attached Files:

  18. wiredbecker

    wiredbecker ... Subscriber

    Messages:
    1,850
    Location:
    Albany Landfill, CA
    Econowave Standard Crossover BOM for DC300 woofer

    [​IMG]

    C1: Dayton Audio DMPC-3.3 3.3uF 250V Polypropylene Capacitor
    Part # 027-420

    C2: 10uF 100V Electrolytic Non-Polarized Crossover Capacitor
    Part # 027-340

    C3: Dayton Audio DMPC-0.47 0.47uF 250V Polypropylene Capacitor
    Part # 027-406

    L1: Dayton Audio 0.80mH 20 AWG Air Core Inductor Crossover Coil
    Part # 257-044

    L2: Dayton Audio 4.0mH 18 AWG I Core Inductor Crossover Coil
    Part # 257-562

    R1: Dayton Audio DNR-30 30 Ohm 10W Precision Audio Grade Resistor
    Part # 004-30

    R2: Dayton Audio DNR-16 16 Ohm 10W Precision Audio Grade Resistor
    Part # 004-16

    L-Pad: Speaker L-Pad Attenuator 15W Mono 1" Shaft 8 Ohm
    Part # 260-250

    Binding posts: Dayton Audio BPA-38SN HD Binding Post Pair Satin Nickel
    Part # 091-1247

    Waveguide: Dayton Audio H6512 6-1/2" x 12" Waveguide 1-3/8"- 18 TPI
    Part # 270-318

    Compression Driver: Dayton Audio DT250T-8 1" Titanium Horn Driver 1-3/8"-18 TPI 8 Ohm
    Part # 270-404

    or the tried and true slightly more expensive

    Selenium D220Ti 1" Titanium Horn Driver 8 Ohm 1-3/8"-18
    Part # 264-270

    Woofer:
    Dayton Audio DC300-8 12" Classic Woofer
    Part # 295-320
     
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  19. wiredbecker

    wiredbecker ... Subscriber

    Messages:
    1,850
    Location:
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    >95db Econowave Crossover BOM (For high efficiency woofers above 95 dB/1W sensitivity)

    [​IMG]

    C1: Dayton Audio DMPC-4.7 4.7uF 250V Polypropylene Capacitor
    Part # 027-422

    C2: Dayton Audio DMPC-12 12uF 250V Polypropylene Capacitor
    Part # 027-430

    C3: Dayton Audio DMPC-1.5 1.5uF 250V Polypropylene Capacitor
    Part # 027-412

    L1: Dayton Audio 0.60mH 20 AWG Air Core Inductor Crossover Coil
    Part # 257-040

    or

    Jantzen Audio 0.60mH 20 AWG Air Core Inductor
    Part # 255-040

    L2: ERSE 1.5mH 18 AWG I Core Inductor
    Part # 266-552 (More expensive, mounts to PCB using mounting hardware)

    or

    Dayton Audio 1.5mH 18 AWG I Core Inductor Crossover Coil Part # 257-552 $4.18 x 2 = $8.36 (Less expensive, mounts using zip ties)

    R1: Dayton Audio DNR-16 16 Ohm 10W Precision Audio Grade Resistor
    Part # 004-16

    R2: Dayton Audio DNR-25 25 Ohm 10W Precision Audio Grade Resistor
    Part # 004-25

    L-Pad: L-Pad 50W Mono 1" Shaft 8 Ohm
    Part # 260-255

    Binding Posts: Dayton Audio BPA-38SN HD Binding Post Pair Satin Nickel
    Part # 091-1247 $5.25 x 2 = $10.50

    Waveguide:
    TBD

    Compression Driver: TBD
     

    Attached Files:

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  20. Steve Smiley

    Steve Smiley AK Subscriber Subscriber

    Finished!

    Oh my ... Sounds stupid good!

    I am so giddy right now. I finished my Econowave standard in a modded donor cab from a pair of Optimus Mach Three (see earlier post). I'm loving how they sound! As I was nearing the end of the build I was trying to talk myself out of having really high expectations. I was working really hard on them and didn't want a huge let down...

    I threw on some various test tracks and what first struck me was how good the bass is. Yeah, maybe that isn't what is supposed to be most impressive but that got my attention first.

    Ok, do yourself a favor. Sit yourself down in front of your ewaves and throw on Frank Zappa-You Can't Do That on Stage Anymore, Volume 3 and play Hands With a Hammer. Play it loud! It's a drum solo, and a real one at that, no drum kit here, let your kids here it too. It would be a real treat for them since most of what they get now-a-days is electronic beats.

    It was about this time in my listening that I noticed my eyes puddling up. I don't know if I was starting to cry from joy or if my tear ducts were giving in to the SPL!

    While you're at it, let the next track play too - Zoot Allures. It's fun stuff! If you are going to listen to the whole album, send your kids out of the room. It's a little off-color.

    I threw on more music and am just so happy with them! I called my daughter down to the basement so she could here some of "her" music. I played Au/Ra, Panic Room for her. I sat her in my listening chair and she started grooving. I was just about to crouch by the chair ( I was a few feet to her right) so I could get in the sweet spot when it hit me... I am in the sweet spot! I was standing in front of the right speaker, literally, and I was getting a sound stage! OK, not an incredible one, but I didn't have to try and squeeze us both into the chair to enjoy how it sounded! It is really impressive.

    Thank you, Zilch (RIP), everyone, Wiredbecker, EarlK, everyone! This has been a great experience, culminating in a great sounding speaker...and this is the Standard Econowave! This speaker is so much fun! What else is out there?!

    Here come some pics
     

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