Zl1 -2. Gt500 -0

[pmsummer]

And it's not like repeatability is that tough on a top speed run. Basically, all it takes is a good driver, with big balls.

Probably bigger than mine! ;-)

 

[Bigerik]

Ah, but the $8K savings is vapor. A fully loaded GT500 lists for $8K more than a ZL1. But you don't need the track pack or the performance package for the "average driver" the ZL1 is supposed to appeal to. And you have to pay a $1500 to $2500 Gas Guzzler tax on top of the ZL1's list price. So, optioned to suit the needs of the vast majority of their owners, the prices are identical.

The Performance Package on the GT500 balances the auto w/gas guzzler tax on the ZL1. Because the auto provides better performance than the manual in the ZL1 (and costs $4K with tax), it's a push.

The Friday night jockeys don't need the the optional adjustable suspension of the Mustang (I'd certainly want it, but doubt I'd ever need it). So, apples to apples, the GT500 is going to win 95% of all real-world showdowns between these two cars, as the objective testing has clearly shown.

As for driving experience, I've found both platforms

(Camaro and Mustang) to be well below my expectations for a $60K car. If I'm buying a $60K car for "total driving experience", neither of these cars make my top 5 (or maybe top 10) list. But that's not why people will buy either of these cars. They will be buying them either to actually use their high performance on the track/strip/or street (illegally), or to be able to brag about it. There, where the rubber meets the tarmac, subjectivity will give way to objectivity.

So you are happy with the GT500 getting its doors blown off consistently around every racetrack. Because as poorly as it compares to the ZL1 on the track with the good suspension, it would likely be destroyed with the base one.

Oh yeah, how much is the automatic in the GT500 again?

And how do you know the automatic is faster? Just based on one GM 1/4 test?

And I can go out today and buy a new ZL1 for 55,395 with all the good performance pieces in it.

Can't do that with the Mustang. I really don't consider things like engine and transmission oil coolers to be unnecessary on a 650 hp car. Nor would I want it to be, comparatively, a wallowing barge. For a car with this much power, a Torsen LSD and the good shocks are necessary.

 

[pmsummer]

So you are happy with the GT500 getting its doors blown off consistently around every racetrack. Because as poorly as it compares to the ZL1 on the track with the good suspension, it would likely be destroyed with the base one.

If I'm going to track the car, I'd get the track pack. If I'm going to do what 95% of of these cars drivers are going to do, I don't need it.

Oh yeah, how much is the automatic in the GT500 again?

Never bought a car with an automatic for myself. Not interested now.

And how do you know the automatic is faster? Just based on one GM 1/4 test?

That's what GM said. The auto is the better performing car.

And I can go out today and buy a new ZL1 for 55,395 with all the good performance pieces in it.

No Gas Guzzler tax in Canada, I guess. Plus $1500 (manual) to $2500 (auto) here in the States.

Can't do that with the Mustang. I really don't consider things like engine and transmission oil coolers to be unnecessary on a 650 hp car. Nor would I want it to be, comparatively, a wallowing barge. For a car with this much power, a Torsen LSD and the good shocks are necessary.

The stock GT500 has quite good shocks and (IIRC) a limited slip diff. The Torsen LSD is an option, as is the differential cooler (ONLY needed for heavy track use, not typical high-speed, athletic road use). The standard cooling system is more than adequate for its (the base model's) intended purpose. As one's intended/expected use changes, so do the options available. A car that will see only 1/4 mile runs doesn't need adjustable dampers or external engine and diff coolers. That's just added weight (to drag racers). A car that will see weekly track events probably needs the extras.

Think of it as user configurable.

P.S. I suspect we'll be be seeing plenty of user-removed ZL1 bits as the danged drag racers start trimming weight for street/stock. Where will they start? You can ignore those guys all you want, but that's who will be buying these cars, mostly... guys whose idea of performance is primarily straight lines (maybe connected by some turns and curves). I doubt there will be too many GT-Rs, Caymans, 911s, M5s and R8s cross-shopped with GT500s and ZL1s. A few, for sure, but just a few.

 

[Bigerik]

You might watch/listen to Randy Pobst's M/T track test video again. He and the editors seemed to have different views.

As for Car and Driver's track lap "tie", don't you find that a little bit suspicious? When they can count every other measurable down to the 1/1000th of a second, the two cars record identical lap times, timed to the 1/10th of a second? Wasn't one of them probably a 1/100th or so faster? Aren't you curious which one it was?

BTW, when the 5th gen Camaro came out, most of the magazines liked it better than the Mustang. About six months later (after the new had worn off a bit), they started having changes of heart. Not saying that will be the case this time.

Funny you bring up the 80 hp disadvantage the ZL1 has to the GT500. I recall that you didn't think the ZL1's 140 hp advantage over the Boss 302 LS was that big of a deal when Pobst tested them.

I said then, the ZL1 was the all around better car, but from performance perspective, it was actually faster then the Laguna Seca through the corners too.

Again, in that test, the best Mustang available was bettered by the ZL1, all around. So the ZL1 has managed to beat both the Mustang track special and the hot rod. Well done Chevy!

Quote from the ZL1 vs Laguna Seca test:

The Camaro clearly came out on top of this fight. Although the Boss 302 is probably the best Mustang ever built, it just feels and performs like it's a generation behind. Randy summed it up: "The Mustang Boss 302 Laguna Seca was my favorite American musclecar -- until today." It isn't the lack of power; it isn't the lack of amenities. It's simply a lack of technology. The Camaro is the benchmark for a new class of vehicle. Call it the Power Pony, the Warhorse -- the name isn't important. What is important is ZL1's on-demand attitude. Supercar levels of performance, with the daily driving comfort of a GT, wrapped in a nostalgic package.



Nothing weird about the tie at Car and Driver. The differences in every track test have been small.

I did listen to the whole video. They called the Mustang a "one trick pony" and said it would get slower and slower with every lap. Basically, in any race more than a lap in length, the ZL1 would eat it up.

 

[Bigerik]

If I'm going to track the car, I'd get the track pack. If I'm going to do what 95% of of these cars drivers are going to do, I don't need it.

Ok, so you really don't care much about performance? Just gonna cruise around town? Remember up to 40 mph, the Camaro will beat you. So you are gonna lose a lot of stoplight races.

Never bought a car with an automatic for myself. Not interested now.

So you are only interested in an automatic when you can use it as a shot against the Camaro. Not surprising, I guess.
For drag strip use, the lack of auto will be a big problem for many folks. Likely why you will see a ton more ZL1's doing well on the track than the stock performance disadvantage would make you think.

That's what GM said. The auto is the better performing car.

Do you have a quote for that? Or are you referring to the 1/4 mile test you derided earlier in this thread?

No Gas Guzzler tax in Canada, I guess. Plus $1500 (manual) to $2500 (auto) here in the States.

Actually, the gas guzzler tax is $1300 and $2600.

The stock GT500 has quite good shocks and (IIRC) a limited slip diff. The Torsen LSD is an option, as is the differential cooler (ONLY needed for heavy track use, not typical high-speed, athletic road use). The standard cooling system is more than adequate for its (the base model's) intended purpose. As one's intended/expected use changes, so do the options available. A car that will see only 1/4 mile runs doesn't need adjustable dampers or external engine and diff coolers. That's just added weight (to drag racers). A car that will see weekly track events probably needs the extras.

So,are you saying, the purpose of the GT500 is NOT to go fast? Not to be driven hard? Seems like the oil was overheating noticeably when Car and Driver tested it, and that was even with the oil cooler, so I would hate to think what would happen if you tried to drive it hard without one.

P.S. I suspect we'll be be seeing plenty of user-removed ZL1 bits as the danged drag racers start trimming weight for street/stock. Where will they start? You can ignore those guys all you want, but that's who will be buying these cars, mostly... guys whose idea of performance is primarily straight lines (maybe connected by some turns and curves). I doubt there will be too many GT-Rs, Caymans, 911s, M5s and R8s cross-shopped with GT500s and ZL1s. A few, for sure, but just a few.

Odd, but when I used to drag race, I did add things like engine oil and transmission coolers.

True, in regards to the GT500. The point of every test so far, and why the Camaro has one them all, is because it is the first Pony car than can be compared to the M3's, Caymans, etc. Finally, a refined, fully balanced, American GT car.

 

[Bigerik]

Anyhow, enough fun for me. I'm gonna go hop in my Ford and get some work done.

 

[twitch54]

I'm gonna go hop in my Ford and get some work done.

you mean 'roadside repairs' !! .....

 

[dnewma04]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=IrhW6W7eZDI

Another iteration of the trend.

Camaro is more composed, easier to drive, more comfortable, has better handling and better balanced all around. Wins on the road course.

Mustang more powerful, more difficult to drive, and more "exciting" because of the power.