Wires, wires, everywhere

VanDaRo

VanDaRo

New Member
Is there any consensus on which wiring practices are better? My question to the board is this:

Given the option, do you prefer long ICs between the preamp and monobloc amps and enjoy short speaker cables, or the other way with short ICs and long speaker cables ??

I'm considering going converting to the short speaker cable layout. BTW, the speakers are also bi-wired.

What say you ??

~VDR
 
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I prefer to keep IC's short to keep noise out. The other reason is that I plug all my gear into a power center, so it makes more sense in my situation to keep it all in one rack.

Evan
 
The standard audio response applies in this case: it depends. I am of the opinion that, inch-for-inch, there are more possibilities for losses in speaker cable than interconnects. So I would tend for short speaker cables, longer interconnects. BUT, this is highly dependent on the preamp being used. If the preamp has a high output impedance, I'd definately go for short interconnects and long speaker cables. If the preamp has a very low output impedance, then go for long interconnects. If the preamp out is balanced and the power amp input is balance and you use balanced interconnects, definately go for long interconnects.

Or, you could be like some wacky clowns, such as myself, that has the preamp next to the right speaker and power amps next to the left speaker which requires long interconnects and long speaker cables. The worst of both worlds!
 
I am going to be doing ^^^

I have balanced ins and outs, so I am going to sit one amp next to each speaker. Super short speaker cables.

Interesting you would suggest that more loss will happen with a speaker cable. Do you have any experience with it happening? I would have thought other way around!

Evan
 
Long IC's, short speaks. All kept off the ground and away from anything else (AC, etc).
 
The answer is... it all depends!
Depends on what, you ask?

*equipment (pre & power amps)
*speaker sensitivity
*cable type & spec
*length of cables

Long interconnects (over 1M) are liable to pick up external noise, especially RFI & mains noise (50/60Hz) & will lose a certain degree of signal strength & clarity due to resistance & capacitance of the cable itself.

Speaker cables, on the other hand will pick up little of the above interference (it is actually an identical amount, but you aren't going to amplify it, therefore it can be considered as negligable) The only loss you need worry about is resistance in the cable, but this normally only becomes a consideration in cables longer than 5M. (easily delt with by increasing conductor size)

Faced with the problem of a large room & multi driver speakers, bi-wiring starts to become a desirable option.

You could always try both & see what works best... without a lot more details regarding exactly what equipment you have, the exact room sizes , house wiring & sources of extraneous electrical noise in your location, it is impossible to advise further.
 
I always figure that power amps are more capable of driving long cables than most preamps are.

The line-level signal is also more delicate, so you want to keep the lengths of your RCA patch cords as short as possible.
 
I too am of the mindset that shorter IC's mean less (chance for) noise.

If you've got a 60hz AC signal near a speaker cable, the audio signal on that cable is already amplified to however many volts (ie. 2.63V for 1W output). The noise would still be there, but as noticeable as compared to the same noise riding on a much smaller signal. So, that same AC signal being induced onto the interconnects from your source to your (pre)amp...you've basically got X amount of noise riding along your Audio signal, all of which will be amplified at the the final stages. And since the signal from your source to preamp to amp are all much lower, the interference is (at least in theory) much more noticeable at the final stages as its been amplified throughout the system.

So then the what are the options? Reroute the cables, isolate from known interference....What about using shielded cables to prevent noise induction?

Personally, I'm cheap. I don't even buy actual "speaker cable" - I use "low voltage wire" used for Alarms and Electronics, etc. Mostly I've been using 16/2. (16 awg, 2 conductor). This however, is very susceptible to interference.

Has anyone used similar cheap wire with shielding?

I know part of my problem is due to using low-quality interconnects that are just waaaayyyy to long for the runs, and it's all sitting there right next to the power cables. :(

Nevermind the fact that the wiring for all my gear looks like a nest, as everything crosses over everything else....

would something as simple as using sheilded interconnects and speaker cables prevent the cross-talk and noise induction?

I think so, but I haven't gotten around to testing it out yet.
 
ShaneC said:
Personally, I'm cheap. I don't even buy actual "speaker cable" - I use "low voltage wire" used for Alarms and Electronics, etc. Mostly I've been using 16/2. (16 awg, 2 conductor). This however, is very susceptible to interference.

Has anyone used similar cheap wire with shielding?
Click to expand...

Have you tried twisting it? You can take a length of it, put one end in a bench vise or something similar, then put the other end into the chuck of an electric drill. (A variable-speed drill will be easiest to use.)

You can usually get a reasonable twist this way that will be pretty much permanent.

Note that you can damage the wire if you get carried away with this, so be careful. (Around 3 turns per foot is what I've used in the past.)
 
stuartk said:
Have you tried twisting it? You can take a length of it, put one end in a bench vise or something similar, then put the other end into the chuck of an electric drill. (A variable-speed drill will be easiest to use.)

You can usually get a reasonable twist this way that will be pretty much permanent.

Note that you can damage the wire if you get carried away with this, so be careful.
Click to expand...

Actually, no I haven't - simply because of the outerjacket.
Oddly enough, I do this all the time for alarm installs just because it looks cleaner in the panels.
 
ShaneC said:
Actually, no I haven't - simply because of the outerjacket.
Oddly enough, I do this all the time for alarm installs just because it looks cleaner in the panels.
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I was envisioning something like the low-voltage wire commonly used for wiring those small garden lights.

Belden 5000 is a good choice for speaker wire too. I've used that and similar wire quite a bit over the years.
 
ShaneC said:
So then the what are the options? Reroute the cables, isolate from known interference....What about using shielded cables to prevent noise induction?
Click to expand...

Yes, yes, and yes. All good ideas.


Personally, I'm cheap. I don't even buy actual "speaker cable" - I use "low voltage wire" used for Alarms and Electronics, etc. Mostly I've been using 16/2. (16 awg, 2 conductor). This however, is very susceptible to interference.

Has anyone used similar cheap wire with shielding?
Click to expand...

Nope, but since you say the wire you are using is "very susceptible to interference", you can either replace it with less-susceptible shielded wire, OR try adding shielding to it.

One other suggestion: that wire is a bit thinner than optimal for speaker wire. I'd try braiding several lengths of it together,to get the equivalent of a "thicker" wire. Braiding wires should also reduce the "cross-talk".

I know part of my problem is due to using low-quality interconnects that are just waaaayyyy to long for the runs, and it's all sitting there right next to the power cables. :(

Nevermind the fact that the wiring for all my gear looks like a nest, as everything crosses over everything else....
Click to expand...

Sounds like you already know the sources of the problem, so the available solutions are simple:

-Upgrade your interconnects (either get better-quality ones, or shield the ones you have better).

-Shorten the interconnects. (Use longer speaker wires instead.)

-Separate the i/c wires from the A/C wires: get the power wires physically as far away from i/c cables as you can. Add spacers between wires (even simple styrofoam or cardboard works for this) to keep individual ones apart, Where wires have to cross each other, get them crossing only at right angles if possible. Twist wires together where appropriate.


would something as simple as using sheilded interconnects and speaker cables prevent the cross-talk and noise induction?

I think so, but I haven't gotten around to testing it out yet.
Click to expand...

It should help a lot, and shouldn't hurt. DO IT!

Seems you already know what the sources of your problems are, and just need to get around to doing the fixes. There are some great threads around here in the archives about wires of all kinds, including some pretty good low-budget approaches that may help you, too (just as an example, CAT 5 computer cable is very cheap these days, and can be made into very nice-sounding speaker cables!).

Good luck!
 
Arkay said:
Nope, but since you say the wire you are using is "very susceptible to interference", you can either replace it with less-susceptible shielded wire, OR try adding shielding to it.
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It's like Zip Cord w/out the Zip! but has an outer jacket.

As for the thickness...how big are you guys running? I have issues fitting 16awg around the screw terminals on the AR's and Technics as is. I don't think anything larger would really help.
 
aye, my longest run is closer to 15ft at most.

I'll also state, for anyone else following this, I do agree that yes, differing lengths of cable can cause timing issues, however, I'm also one of those people that don't consider it to be a real concern in the "typical" home setup (ie. runs of less than 50ft). :)
 
Considering that a signal moves through a cable at approximately 70 to 95% of the speed of light, you'd need a LONG cable to introduce a noticeable delay.

If I did the numbers right (at 80% velocity of propagation), you'd need 786,655.4 FEET of wire to introduce a mere 1 millisecond (0.001 second) of delay.

Another aspect to consider is that the line level cable is basically a voltage signal with very low current. So, there is virtually no line loss over long distances.

Speaker cables, OTOH, carry high currents relatively speaking and are thus susceptable to much more loss due to voltage drop over the length. You end up wasting some portion of your power merely heating the cable.

Consider that pro audio uses short speaker cables and long interconnects wherever possible.

The manual for my Levinson amp also suggests to place the amp to facilitate short speaker cables.
 
I'm going to throw the BS flag on the timing issue. That is to say, even seriously length-mismatched cables will not affect the timing of the signal reaching its endpoint.... even if the difference is 20 miles !!

I WILL, however, completely agree that mismatching cable lengths is a bad practice. Differing lengths or brands (or both -- YIKES !!) will sound different.

My 2 cents...

~VDR
 
whoaru99 said:
Consider that pro audio uses short speaker cables and long interconnects wherever possible.
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They also use balanced lines for the low-level signals, and thus there is greater resistance to noise.

Copper speaker wire gets expensive, heavy, and awkward to handle as the length goes up. You also want to maximize power transfer from the amps to the speakers so you don't have to use more power amp than you need, since power amps also get expensive and heavy, plus hot.

There are thus a number of practical reasons why pro audio uses long line cables and short speaker wires, and those reasons don't apply to a typical home stereo system.

The manual for my Levinson amp also suggests to place the amp to facilitate short speaker cables.
Click to expand...

That amp should be quite capable of driving long speaker wires as found in most home stereo setups. Power amps are almost always designed to allow for nasty loads. (Or maybe your amp gets in trouble trying to drive long speaker wires? I suppose that could be.)

It is quite easy to provide speaker wires of sufficient gauge such that losses are not a problem in the home stereo system.

Even if there are losses in the speaker wires, you can generally turn the volume control up to get back the fraction of a dB with no problem. Power amps normally have enough excess capacity that this isn't an issue.
 
Sure, but any decent interconnect has more than adequate shielding for "long" runs in a typical home environment. Pro Audio uses balanced because they generally work with much longer runs than in the home, and the environment is often more severe with respect to noise.

I have 30-35ft runs of unbalanced line-level interconnects made from run-of-the-mill STP and have absolutely no problems with hum or noise. I have not taken any unusual measures (fancy grounding schemes, balanced power, power conditioners, et al) to achieve this.

Are there exceptions? Sure, there always will be. However, I tend to decide things based on the typical or most likely scenario, not the exception. Or, put another way, I deal with the exceptions as exceptions, don't make them the norm.

I think the concern of noise issues with unbalanced connections is greatly overestimated in the home environment assuming one uses decent interconnects. Decent doesn't mean expensive in this case, only meaning decently shielded.

Yes, no doubt the Levinson can handle wicked loads, it's suitable for operation at 1 ohm (although more cable would increase resistance/impedance). However, the point still remains that Levinson suggests placing the amp for the shortest speaker leads.
 
Well, I still haven't gotten around to making up good cables (need to order parts still); but I did throw everything on some shelves, routed the cables (keeping the IC's away from power, etc).

MUCH BETTER!

I think the coax line to the cable modem was bleeding some interference through as well, but its all on the other side of the room now.

Life is good.
 
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