Pioneer CS-44 Project, Woofer and Tweeter Replacement

I have a pair of Pioneer CS-44 speakers in good shape. Decent cabinets, and working tweeters and woofers. I think these speakers sound pretty dull. The cabinets are very nice and the construction seems top notched.

The CS-44's tweeter opening diameter is 2.75", the tweeter measures 3 7/8" across.

The CS-44's woofer opening diameter is 7.25", the woofer measures 8.50" across.

I don't want to do any physical modifications so I am somewhat limited in replacement components.

I would like to replace the woofers and tweeters in these with the following from Parts Express.

Tweeter:
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=270-058

Woofer:
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=290-042

Before I pull the trigger, I would like some thoughts from my fellow Ak members here. I am also open to replacing the components with anything out there that would be an upgrade from the original. I have never done anything like this so your thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

Below is the original thread I posted with pics.

http://audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=54339&highlight=cs-44

It's very likely that the x/o cap(s) could stand replacing. This could be the source of your dissatisfaction. If you do intend to replace the drivers, have look at the Dayton silk-dome (and anything else they might have on clearance/closeout). They are considered a really good tweeter for the money, although the Pioneer one might be fine too. Also, check out PE's speaker selection wizard here: http://www.partsexpress.com/webpage.cfm?&DID=7&WebPage_ID=100 for drivers suited to your box type/size. FWIW, just new x/o caps and/or the tweeter upgrade might be all you need. Might save you a few bucks to try that first. Good luck! - Mark

I'll check out that link Mark...
I just got finished putting an HPM-300 tweeter in there...more detailed but the muffled sound seems to eminate from the woofer....I guess the crossover is desgned to send a lot of the midrange frequencies to the woofer...One reason why I was considering the Pioneer woofer...Frequency response up to 7000hz...However as I mentioned before, Not really sure what Im doing here...

I don't know much about the original speakers you are dealing with and at first I
would of said that the woofers should be fine since they are the originals to that
cabinet that I would try leaving them and get the dayton tweeter that mark has
mentioned as it is a really nice performer for the money.

What are the demensions to that cabinet?
What does the xover consist of?
Is the tweeter just bolted to the front or is recessed in so that you want to fit that?

What I would do is get the dayton tweeter if it will do you justice for your cabinet
then rework the xover to get a point of about 2k and see how it sounds. If you still
feel the woofer is not to your liking you can replace it then and we can rework the
xover to accomidate the new woofer, and that pioneer one is actually a pretty darn
good unit for the price.

Do you have any specs or can you find them for the speakers as they are?

According to "Randy Quad"..."they were out in 69 and were discontinued in 72, ran for $67 and were upper lower end speakers. frequency 35hz-20khz ."

The Tweeter is bolted to the front.

The cabinet inside dimensions are 10" wide x 8" deep x 18" high.

I used the PE's speaker selection wizard and one of the woofers it came up with was this 8" full range speaker from Pioneer. It intrigued me. I figure if the cossover is sending most or all of the midrange frequencies to the woofer this should be able to reproduce them nicely. But I worry that spending $50.00 on a pair may not improve things.
As far as the cossover goes maybe I need to post some pics because I don't know a diode from a capacitor to a resistor etc..

I stated earlier that I put a pair of HPM-300 tweeters in these and it improved some but I feel the woofer seems a bit dull/muddy and maybe the full range speaker might bring everything to life...here's the link for the full range Pioneer speaker...

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/show...8&St3=-32669009&DS_ID=3&Product_ID=7458&DID=7

Thanks for your input guys!
Jim

PioneerHPMLuver said:

here's the link for the full range Pioneer speaker...

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/show...8&St3=-32669009&DS_ID=3&Product_ID=7458&DID=7

Thanks for your input guys!
Jim

Click to expand...

36-17,000 Hz :scratch2: might not need a tweeter That looks like a fun driver for a single driver XO less project.

It seems like an odd choice for your cab though.

kfa88,
Why do you thing it is an odd choice my cabinet?
What if I hook it up as if it were a straight up woofer and used the tweeter for the higher frequencies?

PioneerHPMLuver said:

kfa88,
Why do you thing it is an odd choice my cabinet?
What if I hook it up as if it were a straight up woofer and used the tweeter for the higher frequencies?

Click to expand...

Just because I'm assuming it goes much higher than the stock one. Might be a good thing but it might also cause a lot of upper mid / lower HF to ether have a big hump or some weird canceling / filtering. Seems you would want to run your tweeter crossed higher. At this point it s all a crap shoot DIY thing (which to me is good) :thmbsp:

Does your XO have a coil looking thing, a winding around a hunk of metal or an open centered spool? If so this chokes the highs and only allows the lows to get to the woofer which would be defeating the full range of that driver.

it s all a crap shoot

At this point it s all a crap shoot DIY thing (which to me is good) :thmbsp:[/QUOTE]

I hear ya....

See my update above and question

kfa888 said:

See my update above and question

Click to expand...

I'll pull the woofers tomorrow and take another look and if can get a shot I'll post pics...
Thanks

Yes some pic's of the xover would be good.

The first woofer you linked to would be fine for that cabinet. The PE finder doesn't get all the woofers.

The second woofer you mention is for another animal all together. I would suggest that one in a
large transmission line setup or folded horn with no xover at all.

It's very possable with the dayton tweeter and a xover tweek we can get your original woofer
to work just fine and make a really good sounding speaker.

Pics

I have attached some pics of the woofer and the Xover, plus a pic with the HPM Tweeter I installed (temporary)...I know how Kegger feels about this!
The Dayton tweeters look good but will have to modify the cabinet slightly to get them to fit....

If you can get the HPM tweeter in there, you can get the dayton in there with no
cosmetic changes, may need to open the whole just a tad but then it should just
bolt on the face with 4 screw holes that any other tweeter would just cover up.

I'm kinda confused here, it's a 2 way but I see 3 sets of wires! Can you tell me where
they all go and how there conected so I can figure out your xover?

Nevermind the green and white must come from the input! I thought it came through
the back of the xover, DUH!

Can you find any LH markings on the coil? Or anything? How big is it? what gauge wire?

Can you find any UF markings on the silver can (capacitor)? Or anything?

Does this xover choke the highs and only allow the lows to get to the woofer?
Since the HPM tweeter didn't really make much difference I'm still contemplating a new woofer...
Thanks again!
Jim

Well the thing is you can allways replace the woofer later if you get a tweeter and
rework the xover. But if you want to get the first pioneer woofer you mentioned I
have no problem with that. Like I said it's suppose to be a good one so if you don't
use it for this it could be used on something else.

The xover in your speakes is a first order on the woofer and second order on the tweeter.

The coil in series with your woofer blocks the highs and lets the lows come through
by having a high resistance to higher frequencies at a certain point and attinuates
them at 6db starting there. 1st order

The cap in series with the tweeter blocks the lows and lets the highs come through
by having a high resistance to lower frequencies at a certain point and attinuates
them at 6db starting there, then there is a small coil in paralell with the tweeter that
will let the lows go through it at a given point to attinuate an additional 6db which
will help protect the tweeter from seeing any lows and destroying it. 2nd order, 12db

That is basically how a xover works and some sware by a 1st order all the way which
has minumum phase shift and if your using low power and the xover points are well
inside a safe operating range for the driver you can get away with it. But if your using
high power or want to use a driver on the edge of it's safe operating frquencies then
you may want a higher order xover maybe in the 4th order region which would consist
of 2 caps and 2 coils on every driver. This is making it simpler then it really is but gives
you the general idea of how and why xovers are used.

Is it possible connect a full range speaker directly and leave the tweeter crossed?
Would there be impedence issues?

Yes you would mess with the impeadance as you would have more then one driver
producing the same frequency.

If you had say 2 8ohm woofers in a speaker producing the same frequencies it would
drop it to 4ohms and you'd have to build your xover based on these new impeadence
curves or you'd be off on the xover point and possably hurt an amp that could not do
a 4 ohm load. That is if you ran them in paralell.